Multi train working plan for the CVLR

[Pendo Pilot]

Now that my lines plan is set (as much as anything is ever set with this hobby) I have been working out a few details. Basic construction being almost half way through it is clear I should end up with about a 300 feet plus circuit of the garden.
All of which is going to be single line working with stations/loops located at four key points along the way to pass trains. Now of course if I am just running one train then it's easy just using the principle of the one train working rule. But as I am meeting a lot of local people who will be welcome to run on the line then things could quickly get out of hand on a single line run. But I have decided I will adopt some real life principle to the problem. I am sure this is nothing new, just seeing if it's something that people would use/enjoy or is it something that would over complicate & spoil the running.
So the plan is to go real railways & use tokens. I know some people's lines don't have signals or anything & believe that it's overkill on theirs. But my line is & was always mean't to be standard gauge style in a narrow gauge way. With this idea I think I can manage to run up to 8 trains at a time at a realistic max. Thats ideally 4 in each way.

This crude not to scale map shows what I intend to try out.



Not planning on token machines!! But I do plan to have just one labelled token for each section.
On this map the sections with tokens would be-
-A to B.
-C to D.
-E to F.
-G to H.
The bits inbetween, for example H to A would be treated as station limits. In this situation a train would not be allowed to proceed from the loop between H & A until he either had the token for G to H if going anti clockwise or A to B if going clockwise.....If that makes sense?

Somewhere between the two points (say A to B ) there would be a holder for that sections token. Before entering the section between A to B in this example, the driver would have to go & get the token before moving. Whilst between Point A to point B he would keep hold of that token. When in clear at the loop between Point B & point C he would then take the token for section A to B back to it's holder, or pass it to a waiting train in the loop between B & C going in the opposite direction.
All tokens would be labelled with the points it was valid from just as in real life, also it will be colour coded. You will have to have the right token for the right section then.

So is that going to kill the fun or is it something that you think would work??

[mhlr]

IMHO, it would be a bit complex for steam ups etc., the fun of it is running trains while having a chat and drinking tea etc, so I reckon people would soon stop using it Depending on if you can be bothered though, it would make a nice feature for special occassions...

[Pendo Pilot]

IMHO, it would be a bit complex for steam ups etc.

I was kind of thinking that Pete, but my other option is only having two or maybe three at a push running at one time all in one direction ideally. As said though it would not be any effort to do so could be fun for special occasions. This is why I have thrown the idea out there though. Feedback is always good.

[Sir haydn]

Stuart Currie in the yorkshire group uses tokens on his line on special days. he only allows 3 working trains at one time, 2 blockmen and a coupler. Even this is a pretty regimented operation and is NOT relaxing as concentration is needed to stop trains coming face to face.

I dont think 8 train operation is realisitic, you will end up with everyone travelling the same direction because they dont want to stop every 9 yards to wait for an on coming train. you really need some scale milage, like chris moody before token running becomes possible. on a short line if someone derails or runs out of steam the whole system is blocked as every loop is full. you will end up explaining the system to everyone who comes round to run. you will soon end up saying, 'as long as your all going the same way I dont mind how you run'. you could always have a special day as stuart does for token running. Its just far more relaxing if everyone goes the same way.

[Pendo Pilot]

Fair enough points. I can see this is going to be harder to explain to visitors than maybe worth. Out of steam & derailments aside I may still try in the end. This whole idea came about as another driver mate came around to run yesterday & as you will know we are all about rules & regs in our industry. Eight trains was always going to be an extreme idea though. To be fair I think four would be a happy medium. Then again as I know 6 current or retired railwaymen in 16mm maybe I will save this plan for there visits as it will be second nature to them. Tail chasing for everyone else!
As I said before as a newbie it's nice to see what the thinking is. Very valuable to learn.

[hussra]

I haven't yet been there when he does this, but David Rowbotham (my nearest 16mm neighbour I think) reckons the most fun on his line is running two manual locos in opposite directions; he has two equally spaced loops on his track. No real need for tokens in that scenario, though, so long as everyone is agreed on which two locos are going to be running.

I'd be inclined just to recognise that there are going to be different ways of running the line, the more visitors the simpler the operation. I do think running in both directions (with or without tokens) could be quite fun, for a small number of trains (2 or maybe 3 if you have 4 loops I would suggest). Of course, not every visitor needs to be a driver, there could be a need for jobs for up to 4 visitors as signalmen/negotiators.

How long will the line eventually be, and the sections between loops?

One of my favourite full size lines (the Belfast & County Down) did even have a couple of short single line sections worked by block bell only without token/tablet/staff/track circuit/anything, so there's a prototype for just about everything. In both of those cases, both signalboxes could see the entire length of the section.

[MDLR]

Fair enough points. I can see this is going to be harder to explain to visitors than maybe worth. Out of steam & derailments aside I may still try in the end. This whole idea came about as another driver mate came around to run yesterday & as you will know we are all about rules & regs in our industry. Eight trains was always going to be an extreme idea though. To be fair I think four would be a happy medium. Then again as I know 6 current or retired railwaymen in 16mm maybe I will save this plan for there visits as it will be second nature to them. Tail chasing for everyone else!

I'm inclined to agree. As is said in other circumstances. what you do on your own in the privacy of your own garden is entirely up to you, but when you have non-railway-trained visitors it might just be a little over the top! I would like to be there when you're running "properly", though...........

[Pendo Pilot]

More fair points Keith. I suppose that any visitor could be marched off to a room & drilled on the railway rule book before operating!
The line will be long enough to run 3 without I think as long as common sense is used. Having said that a few I've ran with down the SVR seem to sometimes lack that in a funny way. As it will cost next to nothing to make this system (A pole painted with the two points it applies to costs very little) I will still do it in the end & then trial it at a point. Manual loco's are going to be a rarity here anyway due to the lines nature. But as you said manual with RC following is one solution. I just would like to have trains going both ways around as basically my line is high at the top end & low at the bottom end with both sides being gradients between the two. The banks are being constructed with different grades, one harsher than the other. So a different driving experience (with RC) can be gained from either going clockwise or anti clockwise.

Glad I posed the question though as I have very limited knowledge of 16mm group runs, the SVR paddock & staffordshire groups indoor layout being the only ones I've run on.

[Dr. Bond of the DVLR]

In a similar way I introduced the bell system to my railway which went down a storm. On my little railway there is little to do for more than 2 people so the bell system occupies people situated at each station. It is easy to learn and easy to operate and these are the key features of any system that is going to be used for open days. The only complaint the I had left both hooks on the choppers which made shunting more difficult. As I said the simpler the better!!

[DVT Dweller]

Anybody on here that used to go to Bill Atkins Winster Valley Railway??

That was run 1 thursday every month to Absolute block working. 4 main stations each with its own signal box and one station that could be switched out if there was not enough operators. between each station there was a single line section with a staff and ticket for that section. As per the big railway there would be a signaler to operate each box with block instruments and point and signals operated by air. Signalers would record each movement through their section. Drivers would also record the movements they made and what train they worked throught the day. Passenger trains time tabled at 15min intervals, 2 block hematite trains would run and pick up goods trains made up and fitted in. so you could end up with 6+ trains running at any one time. Fantastic to run and work, Ive got a DVD my dad made of it if anyone would like to see it? But as has been said people went and enjoyed it as they wanted to run a railway, many people in 16mm with the greatest respect want to play trains. Im more than happy to do either but can understand why some people wouldnt.

[bessytractor]

I find the token working at Fairbourne irksome, and thats only two tokens, so I wouldn't enjoy that at all!

As a signalling enthusiast it is very interesting though!

[TommyDodd]

With my garden-railwayman's hat on I have some observations,

i) I personally would be interested and prepared to come along and give it a go. My railway has been designed around realistic operation from the get-go, and while I'm not yet ready to attempt a full-on timetable & rulebook open day I hope to get there soon. I'd be willing to travel a fair way to do this. One of my favourite 0-gauge lines is worked in this fashion and IMHO it really enhances the realism of the experience. It does require a degree of concentration, but so do many other leisure activities; sports, computer games, actual modelling- and nobody says they're not fun. Just a different kind of fun.

ii) I think for it to work you have to either stick to a small expert team- invitation only, or there will be a lot of bored/disappointed spectators or follow the KISS principle to the nth degree- make it idiot proof as far as possible, because if it takes more than a few minutes to explain to a newby they won't take it in and it will cause problems.

iii) Signals mean signalmen- so if you can't find operators willing to fill those posts it won't fly. The way round that would be to either adopt a set of driver-only block regulations (The No-signalman Key Token regs are in the current rulebook, one of the TS booklets but can't remember which offhand- my copy is in my locker at work) or cheat and couple the signals to your point levers so they act as point indicators.

Now, switching hats to my big-trainset signalman's one, I'd also suggest that:

a) The rule for all forms of absolute block signalling is "one train in a section", so the number of trains you can have on a line is equal to the number of signal sections- and they won't be moving fast, because with every section occupied every signal would be at danger (though this isn't a problem on narrow gauge). So, with four sections you can only have four trains on the move at once, and any delay to one will rapidly rack up severe reaction. The timetabling rule-of-thumb for single track lines is that knock-on delays become a big problem if you're using more than 50% of line capacity, so 2 trains for high season service and 4 on market, fair or gala days.

b) Adopting a simplified "staff and ticket" system might be more flexible. With OTS every train has to carry the staff, so on the prototype trains have to travel in alternate directions (Not a problem on the NR lines where this system is used, since they're generally "long siding" branches and what goes down must come back). Staff and ticket, in which a driver only has to SEE the staff (proving it's at his end of the section and there's nothing coming the other way) allows several trains to pass in one direction before one comes the other way (the last one actually carrying the staff). However, this would mean that the staff would have to be kept at one end or the other, NOT in the middle, otherwise two drivers at opposite ends of the section could see the staff and set sail simultaneously with hillarious consequences.

c) In section A-B there is a potential conflict between a train running B to A and a shunt movement in or out of the workshops. There are two prototypical ways to resolve this;
i) Bring the points within the station limits (and signal protection) of the top station
ii) Operate the points from a ground frame released by the staff (not impossible, but requiring some mechanical ingenuity- perhaps by reducing the point lever to a stub and fitting the staff with a bit of brass tube to slide over it and act as a detachable lever).

We operations fans are always going to be a minority within a minority in the 16mm world, but hell, if we wanted to do what everyone else was doing we'd be running OO in the loft, right? Good luck, and let me know when the first running session is, and if you need a signalman!

[DVT Dweller]

Shane, If you want a copy of the Winster Valley dvd let me know and I will sort one out for you. just to give you an idea how things ran up there.

Steve

[Sir Clothem Cap]

Well theres a lot of good ideas for the tablet system but with live steam it would be a pity to have to wait ages for the token for the next section. It would work well with battery radio control. So I am going to sit on the fence and say "Do whatever you want on your system and enjoy it. If it stops being fun forget it."