Meths Supply

[Narrow Minded]

I would, but it's been so long since I got any! The chemists round here have stopped getting it - I've thought of trying the stuff used for industrial cleaners (It's labelled "Meths BP") so should work.

Where do you get yours from?

[METHSSNIFFER]

Hi Guys I didnt know they was a difference Im gonna have to get up the chemist and have a sniff! Im gonna have to get some more anyway as Im running out. Thinking of extra heating in the house at Minus six I might get the burners goin! No central heating here just a gas fire and a couple of storage heaters and itttttssss chill chill chilly!!!

[pauly]

I get mine from the chemist, good stuff!

[PCLR]

I would, but it's been so long since I got any! The chemists round here have stopped getting it - I've thought of trying the stuff used for industrial cleaners (It's labelled "Meths BP") so should work.

Where do you get yours from?

I get my meths from B&Q or homebase any hardware store chould sell it

[Narrow Minded]

Yeah but that's the purple stuff. It's the clear stuff that's best!
It burns loads cleaner!!!!

[PCLR]

oh real i never know that i will pop down the chemits now

[METHSSNIFFER]

I heard that clear meths was better as it is pure methanol and not mineralised like the purple stuff. I think they made it purple to stop alcoholics from abusing it. Methanol will blow yer socks off I understand but I believe it burns or should I say combusts more efficiently. I asked at the chemist and they dont sell it. I will try and see if its listed on e bay!

Yes its on ebay chaps just type in METHANOL!!

[METHSSNIFFER]

Are we all addicted to Meths!! I know I am Ive just seen the clear stuff on ebay it looks as though there are two types alcohol and biodiesel I would guess it be the alcohol one for steam engine use.

[Narrow Minded]

I'm very interested in this one.........maybe we should split the thread and follow it through?

I'll follow 'sniffers lead and have a look on ebay, try some and report back. Any other input anyone?

[Hancockshire]

Proper people like sniffing meths. Argh, I've run out somebody shoot me

[Narrow Minded]

Well I've just ordered some methanol, as soon as it arrives I'll test it and post a report.

In the meantime, I've found this on YouTube.............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MINBn4UhXaU

[Narrow Minded]

Continued sniffing around the 'net and I've just read that apparently Methanol is really nasty stuff!!

An alternative is Propanol (or Isopropyl Alcohol). Surprise, surprise, you can also get that on ebay so I've ordered a bottle.

Are there any other spirit burners out there that can add any info??

Cheers, Greg.

[METHSSNIFFER]

Be careful Greg Dont blow yerself up.. there should be a COSH sheet so ensure you read it. Health and safety foremost ok!!

[Narrow Minded]

Absolutely! Hence my warning above. (and request for info from any other spirit heads out there!)

[TonyW]

METHANOL IS TOXIC: drinking 10 mL will cause blindness, and as little as 100 mL will cause death.

MY ADVICE: DON'T EVEN OPEN THE BOTTLE!

Meths is based on ethanol, not methanol. Ethanol is the "alcohol" in beer, wine and spirits.

Methanol burns with only three quarters of the heat of normal meths, so expect sluggish steaming:
http://www.kayelaby.npl.co.uk:80/chemis ... _11_4.html

Clear meths is known properly as Industrial Methylated Spirits (IMS). You need a licence from HM Revenue & Customs to purchase and store it, and the seller also needs an equivalent licence.

Any chemist should be able to order you a 5ltr bottle of purple Meths BP - you just have to ask them to do it![/url]

[METHSSNIFFER]

Methanol is meths ethanol is a solvent and will kill as all chemicals will if ingested, but we are not talking about drinking it here. Its about the efficient burn and its safe use. I think if we all took your advise or listened to it we wouldnt dare steam an engine up In fact if this was the case then this hobby should not exist. I know many 16millers who use the bp methanol clear and you may well see it at exhibitions . I think if it is this dangerous it should be banned at indoor events as well as gas too, all this in a confined space could lead to someone getting killedor overcome by fumes. I wouldnt encourage ethanol use for the reasons you say but meths in its purer state is and does seem acceptable. I would like to know what the manufactures of locos say on this. I know mamod fuel tablets are fatal if swallowed Should everyone attending exhibitions be issued with a COSHH sheet and  should the association of 16mm be advising on this and give guideance on its proper use. For anyone not knowing what COSHH is its the control of substances hazardous to health and is part of the HSE guidlines and laws on dealing handling and safe use of such substances.

[Narrow Minded]

When I first discovered 16mm live steam, gas firing was pretty much the "new thing", spirit burners were by far more common. (There, given my age away now!)
At the same time, elfen safety wasn't the killjoy that it's become today nor were there the amount of "crack-heads" cutting their heroine (or whatever it is they do) with clear Meths so it was readily available.

Even so, I can remember reading about folks experimenting with different fuels and fuel mixtures. Has this become a "black art"?

I'm actually amazed that guys with meths burning loco's weren't even aware of alternatives to the purple high street variety of meths - no disrespect, but it just shows how little attention this method of firing has had recently.

I reckon methssniffer's right, given the seriousness of HSE and COSHH there should be some official guidance - even if it only applies at puplic events.
But within the hobby, I think we could all benefit from knowing a bit more about it.

I love gas firing for the general convenience of it (BTW there's even some level of confusion here with butane & butane/propane mix) But I really LOVE spirit firing for the pure nostalgia of it all (and it burns quieter than the quietest gas burner!!!!)

[TommyDodd]

The name "methylated spirit" is a bit deceptive. It sounds like it ought to mean methanol (CH3OH) but it doesn't. It really means "spirit" IE the stuff we refer to as Alcohol even though it's only one member of the alcohol group of chemicals, Ethanol (C2H5OH). Pure ethanol is of course dangerously potent but not instantly lethal. To make "methylated spirit", sold for fuel/solvent/cleaning/insecticide use and not have to pay duty on it as spirits certain nasties are added:

10% methanol, to make it toxic and undrinkable
a drop of castor oil, to make it taste foul so nobody even tries.
A dribble of methyl violet, to give it that distinctive colour.
Something I can't remember, to give it that distinctive smell.

People have tried alternatives down the years. Isopropyl alcohol apparently burns hotter but sootier, at least in combustion spaces designed for meths. IMS (Industrial Methylated Spirits) is probably the best replacement, being a purer version of the same stuff,  but it's clear as supplied so needs to be dyed to avoid hair-raising incidents*. I believe one or two adventurous types have nipped across the channel to un supermarche and bought "alcohol a bruler" (alcohol to burn), sold for use in camping stoves and the like. Never tried it myself.

EDIT: Forgot this footnote * There was a well-known incident at a public show (Butterley garden railway show IIRC) where a well known steamologist was using IMS which he had neglected to dye. Refilling a loco's boiler for its next run, he grabbed the clear unlabelled bottle of clear liquid thinking it was water. The engine raised steam alright. It may even have moved, but then the safety valve blew...

[Narrow Minded]

I well remember hearing the tale in your footnote and it left a lasting impression, to the extent that I always added a splash of the purple stuff to my ever dwindling supply of "clear"!

[METHSSNIFFER]

Working with chemicals myself we all know that bottles should be labelled at all times of the substance its nature and what to do in case of accident and thats why I mention COSHH but not going off the subject we should all be aware of the dangers and take care not to injure ourselves and others around us. THINK SAFE BE SAFE!