Need brake van info

[Keith S]

Well, today I got a package from IP engineering containing my IoM "G" Wagon kit as well as the Guard's Van kit. I can't decide which one to make first.

I was hoping someone could give me some information about guard's vans. I have never seen one in real life, so I don't know much about them.

I ordered a little white metal brake stand to go with it. The van itself is the open-ended one, and I had the impression (from watching the Titfield Thunderbolt) that the brake stand should go in the open balcony. However, I have seen models that have the brake stand inside. Usually these ones do not have an open end, though. Am I correct in assuming the brake should be in the open end? I would like it to be, because it won't be very visible inside the van.

Also, I was hoping to decorate the inside somewhat. I guess there should be a couple of benches and a little coal stove?

I have decided not to put the centrifugal brake mechanism in there, mostly because there are windows in it, and it would be visible in this wagon, and also I think the actual brake should go in a wagon that is closer to the locomotive, so I will probably build another box wagon at some point for this mechanism. For now I am going to build these two wagons conventionally.

Finally, even though it doesn't come with the kit, I guess brake vans had brake SHOES, and I am going to try and make some dummy ones for this model. I would be pleased if someone had a picture of some typical brake rigging I could try and copy. The IoM "G" wagon has brake rigging in the kit, would this be similar to the brake mechanism on a guard's van?

Well, that's about it. Thanks in advance.

[IrishPeter]

Brake Vans had brakes acting on all four wheels, which may not be the case with your 'G' wagon.  The old IMR vans had brakes on one set of wheels only, and in some cases only one brake handle!.  If it is one of the vans with brakes on all four wheels then the G wagon brake gear can serve as a template.  The IP model seems to be of one of the later, larger G wagons built on an old 4-wh carriage underframe.  It should IIRC have brakes on all four wheels..  

The only std gauge vans I can think of with the brake stand outside were the GWR Toads and some SR vans. LNER/BR vans had them inside. On the 3 foot, the Ballymena, Cushendall and Red Bay had vans with balconies and there the brake was controlled by a very American looking wheel on the brake ends.  Even boxed in brake vans do not always have the brakestand fully inside the vehicle.  The IMR brake vans (E series) had their brake wheels at the very end of the vehicle neccessitating a metal housing on the end of the van to accomodate the brake handle.  This feature is shared by the Fs with hand brakes - the brake-thirds, brake-omposites, luggage-thirds, and Empress vans.  The MNR vans, but not the brake coaches, had the brake stand inside the vehicle.

Internal furnishings are usually minimal in a British style brake van.  Usually there would be a bench seat.  If it has duckets there would be a bit of a shelf to park your backside on whilst looking along the train, a stove, and a rack for such things as working timetables, flags, weigh bills, etc..  The stove was just about compulsory on goods brake vans as it gave you something to brew tea on, and to thaw you out after long spells shunting in cold wet weather.  Depending on the sort of coupling your railway uses, a shunting pole might be among the brake van clutter, and you will need a secure tin box for detonators.

I think that's about it.  

BTW, if the G wagon kit is the one I am thinking it is you'll need to boggle the solebars to get it to look right, as on the real thing they are stepped back from the bottom of the wagon side about 6".

Peter in AZ

[Keith S]

Hmm. Well, I think I might invoke "rule 8" in the case of the brake, I would like the crank to be outside in the "verandah" so it can be visible when the train goes by.

The "G" wagon does have shoes on all four wheels, and I think the sole bars are stepped back, but I will have to look at some pictures of the real thing to see what you mean for sure. I'm not very fussy about scale details in any case, after all my engine and wagons are not meant to be models of any real railway. I like them to look plausible, but I take the lazy man's approach to modelling any particular prototype: that is to say, I don't.

Thanks for the reply, Peter. I will copy the IP brake gear from the G wagon on the brake van: other than the brake handle, of course.

I'm excited about the brake van, they seem to have a lot of character for a railway wagon. I've already started on the "G" wagon. So far, it's a very good kit.

[IrishPeter]

The brake gear on a brake van would have worked off a brake stand in the van via some sort of linkage, so yes, the handle at the side of the wagon does indeed need to be missing. Sorry, I should have mentioned that above.

One reason I do not model the Isle of Man Railway is that it is familiar territory for me, so there is a danger of my indulging my rivet counting streak. The Skebawn and Castleknox came about as a way to keep things fun after a couple of other projects fell victim to the scourge!

Peter in AZ

[GTB]

I was hoping someone could give me some information about guard's vans. I have never seen one in real life, so I don't know much about them.

Much the same as a caboose to all intents and purposes. Just somewhere for the guard to ride, do his paperwork and hang his coat and hat........

I would be pleased if someone had a picture of some typical brake rigging I could try and copy.

I've just finished my first brake van, which is a 4 wheeler with british style working brake gear. Can't post the photos and write-up at the moment, as I'm on dial-up until next week. I'll post them then.

Main diference between a wagon with 4 wheel brakes and a brake van was how the cross shaft is driven. On a wagon there was a lever on one or both sides and some sort of clutch on one side, if there were two levers.

On a brake van, the brake standard had a screw thread that drove a nout on a bell crank, then a linkage to a crank arm on the brake cross shaft.

Where the brake standard was fitted depended on the railway. The GWR liked it's goods guards to get plenty of fresh air to keep them awake, so they put it on the end platform. Passenger guards travelled in more comfort..........

Regards,
Graeme

[IrishPeter]

The GWR liked it's goods guards to get plenty of fresh air to keep them awake, so they put it on the end platform. Passenger guards travelled in more comfort..........

Regards,
Graeme

Yes, they usually had a padded seat and the van was less draughty. However, a lot of the old four and six wheel passenger vans had no heat. Even in more enlightened times Isle of Man Rly guards used to pass comment that you were OK going into Douglas as the heating in the guard's compartment in a brake-third was excellent, but on the way back one would freeze in the guard's end of a brake-luggage-third as they only had little or no heat in their half of the carriage.

I remember the steam heat stock on CIE was a bit of a lottery. A four car set could either be toasty from one end to the other, or have four climate zones - topical, semi-tropical, temperate, and winter North Atlantic. I have a suspicion there may be some black art connected with getting steam heating to behave all the way to the rear of the train!

Peter in AZ

[Keith S]

Thanks, Gentlemen. The information so far is quite handy. I'm looking forward to seeing the brake gear on your van, Graeme.

I ordered a set of "working brake gear" from IP, but I'm afraid I made a mistake and ordered the kind with only one brake shoe, so I am going to have to make my own for the van. No matter: I'm pretty good at making things from little brass bits so I'll just put the IP gear on one of my four-plank wagons.

[TommyDodd]

Interesting and informative topic so far. Here are a few extra nuggets that haven't so far been mentioned.

Equipment
In addition to those items already mentioned, you might expect to see flags & 3-colour hand-lamp, a brake-stick (solid lump of wood about the size of a baseball bat, but with a square head and round handle, used for levering wagon handbrakes on and off), possibly a pinch-bar (long crowbar- push under a wagon wheel and apply body-weight, and it's possible to hand-shunt even a standard gauge wagon with much sweating and swearing), spare coupling chain(s) and even a tow-rope (rare in practice but a rulebook requirement for many years, it was used for rope-shunting i.e. pulling wagons on parallel or diverging tracks).

Brake vans vs. Road vans
      Different railways used different terminology so I have to be careful here. Generally, a brake-van carried the guard and his equipment, and that was it. However, sundries* could be carried on the brake van on some lightly used lines where even the use of station trucks# wasn't justified. If this happened regularly, the brake van would be of a special type sometimes called a "road van". These would have the large side doors typical of goods vans to allow quicker easier unloading, and usually lack duckets since these would foul the sliding doors. Many narrrow gauge brake vans were in fact road vans.

Other special brakes for special jobs
If a company had enough of a particular traffic to justify it, almost any kind of special vehicle would be built to suit. These were comparative rarities even on standard gauge but if you have a plausible excuse or even just a hankering, why not have something a bit different?
The heavy brigade. On some heavy trains on steep lines, the standard brake just wasn't enough and a bit more beef was needed. Standard designs could be ballasted with scrap or concrete to give the brakes a bit more bite, but if enough weight was added this way an extra axle or two would be needed to stay within the maximum axle-loading. Six and eight wheel brakes were rare but not unknown. The most extreme case I've seen was one company which created "double" brakevans, permanently coupling pairs together and linking their brake gear so turning the screw of one would operate both sets of brakes. NB any van required to use a lot of brake force in anger would benefit from sanding gear.
For the Civil Engineers department's ballast trains there were two common requirements. First, since large groups of men would frequently need to be taken to and from the worksite a van with lots of staff accommodation would be useful for both transport and messing. The GWR met this need by boxing in the verandahs of their standard brakes to create extra covered space. Second, once the ballast was tipped it needed to be spread, so a special species of brakevan with adjustable ploughshares was created. The ploughs could be raised for normal running, then lowered to fit snugly over the rail-head to spread the ballast evenly. These vehicles, known by their morse telegraph codeword "Shark", were among the last brakevans in regular use on the main line network.
A Unique vehicle was used on one of the South Wales Valleys lines, known as an "Incline Brake Van". The branch was steeply worked and all trains (coal wagons) were banked. To enable the banker drivers to have a good view along the full length of the train the van was built with a very steeply pitched roof, so the guard could only stand upright on the centre-line, and the balconies at both ends lacked roof cover.

Lamps and lamp irons
    Since most goods trains in the era of brake vans were loose-coupled (IE lacking continuous automatic brake) it was necessary to indicate to both train crew and lineside staff (primarily signalmen) that the train was still in one piece. All trains carried the red tail lamp (or board by day) but unfitted goods trains needed extra measures. Brakevans therefore had irons for side-lights too (or built in side-lights, usually fitted on top of the duckets) which would show red lights aft (so showing 3 reds behind) and white forward (1 each side). In order not to frighten following drivers the guad had to turn the red nearest the main (or fast) line to show white backwards when the train was running on a slow line or dyked in a refuge loop or siding.

* Sundries were goods consignments not big enough to justify having a wagon all to themselves. Sundries would be loaded into any wagon going in the right general direction to make up a full load, and frequently be trans-shipped from one wagon to another more than once during their journey. The difference between a sundry and a parcel was the rate paid. Parcels travelled faster by passenger train, so cost more to send. Even a railway which only ran mixed trains would keep the two separate, for once they arrived at the main line junction they would travel onwards by different services at very different speeds.

# A Station Truck was a wagon, usually a van, into which sundries for any station on a given route not busy enough to get its own dedicated vehicle would be loaded. It would travel in an all-stops service, generally the pickup goods, and be left in a handy location for station staff to sort through for their own consignments while shunting took place. To make the job easier, it would usually be marshalled in the same place in the train (ideally behind the last wagon to be set out before destination) every time, and porters would have barrows positioned ready for it.

[Keith S]

All excellent information! Looks like there are a lot of ways to make a brake van kit highly detailed, and some thought needs to be put into what kind of service the trains will be doing on your railway.