what type of water?

[METHSSNIFFER]

23. All FCAF steamers are oil burners (gas oil supplied by YPF being burnt instead of bunker oil or waste oil) rather than coal, wood or biomass burners. Zero spark emission must be guaranteed within the densely forested Tierra del Fuego National Park. Likewise minimum smoke and noxious gases are avoided as the company makes stage by stage improvements to its oil firing combustion systems allied with the fitting of state of the art Lempor exhaust systems. 'Camila' is fitted with its original American style flat trough burner which employs external atomisation. In contrast 'Nora's' flat burner was replaced by an internally atomised, rotary burner during its rebuild and modification of 2001. At the time of writing comparative testing of the old and new systems as fitted to each locomotive using a modern industrial gas analyser is under way, it is expected that full test reports on the performance of each locomotive following stage 1 modification will be available during March 2004. Superheated steam for burner atomisation has been applied to both engines, at the time of writing such has been removed so as to carry out quantitative testing in this area (i.e. before and after results), the use of superheated steam for oil burning applications has proved to be successful. Closely controlled solid fuel trials have been carried out at FCAF (outside of National Park boundaries) and the successful burning of unseasoned wood logs was noted using a 'reactive' exhaust system (in this case the reactive exhaust ejector is the most advanced system developed to date, further development of exhaust systems continues apace).

24. The tube bundle of a smoke tube boiler represents a vulnerable area as far as scale build up is concerned and as far as we were concerned at FCAF was the last and most difficult place from where we had to extract broken down scale. Once back in traffic during August 2001 the improved steaming of this engine was noticed by drivers (the writer being one of them!) and was reflected in reduced fuel and water consumptions. Return to main text.

25. In the United States full washout houses supplied with continuous boiling water supplies from adjacent plants were built into steam locomotive depots. Return to main text.

26. It is common to perform a 'slow warm up' when re lighting oil fired boilers from cold state. This in effect simulates the slower heating up action of a conventional coal fire. At FCAF this method of re lighting following washout has been done away with following adoption of USA washing out methods. At the time of writing 'Camila's' boiler has not cooled down since outshopping from exam 'C' during late July 2001. Return to main text.

27. FCAF locomotives 2 and 3 are fitted with steam sampling valves (this fitting consisting of a valve and condensing pipe) which can also be used as 'pressure relief valves' (blow - off valves) when lowering of the boiler pressure is required. Return to main text.

28. The official language of Argentina is Spanish (in fact it is the official language of Latin America apart from Brazil, which adopted Portuguese due the Catholic Churches' division of south American land between Spain and Portugal), however many English phrases are employed in the particular dialect of this language as spoken in the country. For example 'OK', 'Stop' and 'Yes' can be often heard spoken by Argentines who are not the least bit fluent in the English language - PT should really have been christened TP if the Spanish lead were to be followed! Another American English language carryover into the Spanish language seems to have been the adoption of FC to represent Ferrocarril as RR stands for Railroad in the United States - can you see a second capital C or capital R in the respective translations of Railway? The narrow gauge railway was originally referred to as FAF and at a later date FcAF, though both are grammatically correct as far as the Spanish language is concerned, FCAF is the correct railway representation! Return to main text.

29. The boiler foam height monitor is based on the signal foam meter developed around 1940 by the Dearborn Chemical Company of the USA and was modified slightly by Porta for application during water treatment trials in Argentina. In essence it allows the driver to 'see' inside the boiler and is a great practical aid for monitoring internal conditions of the boiler water. It is an essential tool when working with antifoams and has been known to allow superheater elements last up to 30 years without repair or replacement. The system consists of an electrical circuit which is closed when the top of the foam layer touches the tip of the electrode sensor extensions mounted in the steam space. As this is the case a series of indicating lamps are lit, such forming part of the locomotives 'flight deck'. The electrode extensions are positioned at varying heights over the minimum water level, the longest one corresponding to 'half a glass' indication, the intermediate one to 'full glass' indication and the shortest one to 'over the top nut' indication. The circuit is fitted with test switches corresponding to the respective indicating lamps, thus the driver is able to carry out a functional check prior to departure. The system is permanently connected though an 'on/off' control switch is provided on the locomotives electrical control panel. In NO CASE is the system to be connected to other apparatus or its indications to be related to safety. Return to main text.

30. Refer to note 13 above. Return to main text.

31. The sketch drawing in Porta's detailed paper on the foam height indicator shows the electrodes as positioned between the firebox and steam collecting dome, however this relates to locomotive designs that have throttle linkages that do not pass through the water space down the centre line of the boiler - for example throttle valves located in the smokebox with external drive linkage. The electrodes must be fitted on the centre line of the boiler barrel so as to give true foam height readings. Return to main text.

32. Whilst using non-alkali resistant resistant gaugeglass tubes it was common to replace these at the same time as the fusible plugs, both at ACR and FCAF. A few isolated cases of gaugeglass failures has been known to occur due to insufficient care being taken to monitor the conditional behaviour of such fittings. Return to main text.

33. The threshold of antifoam concentration in the boiler is hard to define, but it can be said that the smaller the water content per unit of water evaporated per unit time then the better. This is the case for modern high draughted boilers, such as the ones fitted to FCAF locomotives 2 and 3. However, even though No.3 is a moderately modified locomotive with an efficient exhaust ejector it would carry over its water due to foaming on the heavily graded approach to La Macarena station some 7 minutes into the journey. Return to main text.

34. For a large part of this steaming cycle, Chris Parrott, Technical Assistant UK Division, Tranex Turismo S.A. was the regular driver of 'Camila' and the opportunity was taken for him to record as much detailed in service technical data as was possible at the time. Return to main text.

35. By the time that the modified locomotive was ready for steam testing during December 2001, the internal water surfaces of the boiler were seen to be clean, and by the time the boiler was first washed out on 4/1/02 following a very short steam cycle of only 14 days it was apparent that the internal surfaces were a brilliant grey colour. The writer had witnessed this effect before during observation of Welshpool and Llanfair Railway locomotive boilers following treatment using M & S Water Treatment Services chemicals but never to such a rapid extent as that experienced with FCAF's modified Garratt. Return to main text.

36. Locomotive No.2 was renamed 'Ing. L.D. Porta' at a ceremony attended by over 80 invited guests at Estacion fin del Mundo on 11th December 2001. The locomotive had been previously named 'Nora'. The rebuilding and first stage modification of No.2 constituted a replacement of about 70% replacement component parts and a brief review of the work carried out is attached to this paper as an appendix. Porta himself attended the ceremony whilst the locomotive was christened by Mrs. H.M. McMahon. Porta celebrated his 80th birthday during March 2002 and the re naming of the locomotive combined with the painting of such in bright red livery according to his principle that all locomotives incorporating his technology should be painted this way, were carried out in recognition of this milestone. Return to main text.

37. This particular washout coincided with replacement of the fusible plug and the attendance of D.T. Morgan, Chairman of FEDECRAIL at FCAF. It would have been possible to run the locomotive longer before washing out took place however it was convenient to inspect the internal surfaces at a relatively short interval due to the boiler being 'new'. Return to main text.

38. Refer to note 11 above. Return to main text.

39. Nowadays used by the commercial tourist operators of 'Tren a las Nubes'. Return to main text.

40. Porta took the opportunity to modify 1802 prior to the water treatment trials. Return to main text.

41. During earlier trials of the PT system in Argentina and more recently at FCAF, the testing of the feed water was deliberately ignored so as not to distract attention from internal boiler conditions. Return to main text.

42. Not a single visit has been made by a chemist to FCAF during the 4 years of application of the PT system to its locomotives. An analysis of the boiler water is made when water samples are occasionally sent to the chemist's laboratory in Buenos Aires. So far the advice of a chemist has not been required in order to solve any problem that occurred during in these trials. Return to main text.

43. Upon observation (and participation) of different working practices carried out in various locomotive depots and workshops situated over 4 continents, the writer realised that such varied greatly as did the local culture. What is applicable in one part of the World is not necessarily applicable in another, for example the imaginative, creative and inquisitive mind of the Argentine would not respond effectively to the rigid rules and regulations laid down by the SAR, in this case it was more effective to slightly modify British and USA practices in order to suit the requirements of FCAF. Return to main text.

REFERENCE & BIBLOGRAPHY - APPLICATION OF THE PT INTERNAL BOILER WATER SYSTEM.

1. 'The Red Devil and other tales from the Age of Steam', Wardale, D. Published Wardale D. Inverness, Scotland 1998. (See http://www.5at.co.uk/Red-Devil-book.shtml)
2. 'Camila' - Borador de trabajo, McMahon, S. Tranex Turismo S.A. Ushuaia 1999/2000/2001.
3. FCAF locomotive No.2 'Nora'/'Ing. L.D. Porta' - Borador de trabajo, McMahon, S. Tranex Turismo S.A. Ushuaia. Volumenes 1 e 2 1999/2000/2001/2002/2003.
4. 'Steam Locomotive Boiler Water Treatment', Porta, L.D. Buenos Aires, 1975. Revised 1978. Reviewed 1987, 1992.
5. 'Some aspects of the LVM 800 Locomotive design', Porta L.D. Buenos Aires, 1998.
6. 'The Thermo - Mechanical behaviour of the steam locomotive boiler firebox - an overall view', Porta L.D. American Coal Enterprises, Newark, U.S.A. 1984.
7. 'A note on oil burners as applied to steam locomotive', Porta, L.D. Buenos Aires, 2000.
8. 'Fundamentals of the Porta Compounding System for Steam Locomotives', Porta, L.D. Buenos Aires, 2000.
9. 'Boiler Foam Height Monitor', Porta, L.D. American Coal Enterprises, Newark, U.S.A. 1984.
10. Personal correspondence between Porta, L.D. and McMahon, S. 1991 - 2003.
11. Personal correspondence between Wardale, D. and McMahon, S. 1998 - 2003.
12. Personal correspondence between Day, N. and McMahon, S. 1991 - 2003.
13. Personal correspondence between Girdlestone P. and McMahon, S. 1991 - 2003.
14. 'Proposed High Performance 4-6-0 Locomotive Draft Specification', Wardale Engineering and Associates, Inverness, Scotland, 2001. (See http://www.5at.co.uk/5ATspecifications.shtml)
15. ' La Locomotive a Vapuer', Chapelon, A. 2nd French edition 1952, English translation, Carpenter, G. 2000. Published Camden Somerset, England 2000. (Available from Camden Miniature Steam Services)
16. 'Chapelon - Genius of French Steam', Rogers OBE, H.C.B. Colonel. Published Ian Allan Ltd. Shepperton, Surrey, England 1972.
17. 'L.M.A. Handbook', written and published by the L.M.A. of Great Britain, London 1949.
18. 'Boiler Building and Repair Practice, Part 3 A. 1201,1202,1203,1204,1205,1206.' South African Railways code of practice, CME SAR, Pretoria 1954.
19. 'ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code Section III - Rules for construction of boilers of locomotives', ASME, New York, U.S.A. 1952.
20. 'Locomotive Cyclopedia (parts 1 and 2)', Wright, R.V. Published Simmons - Boardman Publishing Corporation, New York, U.S.A. 1947.
21. 'Prototype Class NGG 16 A Locomotive No. 141 - Instructions for Footplate Staff', Girdlestone P. CME Alfred County Railway, Natal, South Africa 1989.
22. 'Some Steam Leakage Tests on Locomotive Nora, Ferrocarril Austral Fueguino', Porta L.D. Tranex Turismo S.A. Buenos Aires 1999.
23. 'Fugas en la placa tubular No.1 de las calderas humotubulares', Porta, L.D. INTI, Depto de Termodinamica, Buenos Aires 1980.
24. 'Specifications for a 0-6-0, 500/600 mm gauge, 150 HP Locomotive design', Porta, L.D. Tranex Turismo S.A. Buenos Aires 1998.
25. 'Technical photographic collection FCAF', McMahon, S. and Diaz, R. Tranex Turismo S.A. Ushuaia 1999 to 2003.
26. 'Technical railway motive power and rolling stock photographic collection - Shaun McMahon', McMahon, S. Ushuaia 1986 to 2003.
27. 'S.A.R. Class NGG 16 working drawings', South African Railways, C.M.E. S.A.R. Pretoria 1959.
28. Websites relating to the current steam locomotive modernisation programme being carried out at FCAF:

http://www.trendelfindelmundo.com.ar
http://www.trainweb.org/tusp/
http://www.5AT.co.uk/
http://railwaysofthefarsouth.co.uk/
http://www.martynbane.co.uk/
http://dialspace.dial.pipex.com/steam/internat.htm

S. McMahon
Ushuaia
Tierra del Fuego
Rep. Argentina

[vjoneslong5040]

I take it that since you model prototypical practice you have built yourself a true scale water treatment plant? Coz if you have, I have got to see it!

But interesting reading though, thanks!

[Big Jim]

Wow, interesting stuff.
I think that must win the longest post prize.

[JMORG]

I think that must win the longest post prize.

+1 to that!
Anyways, best water to use is Dehumidifier water (we have about 3 working continuously!) Tap water is Deionized, which wrecks boilers!

[TIGER]

Thanks very much for that methssniffer, bit of bedtime reading ! Certainly something to consider

[Keith S]

There you go Tiger! Toss some of that powdered stuff into your boiler every run, plus some polyamide dust to keep foaming down, and don't forget to do a hot blow-down every week or so, and you can use any water you like!

[METHSSNIFFER]

I take it that since you model prototypical practice you have built yourself a true scale water treatment plant? Coz if you have, I have got to see it!  :lol:

But interesting reading though, thanks!

Thirty years in the water industry and yes I've worked in water treatment both clean and the other. So I do know a bit about water.

I am interested to know how de ionised water wrecks boilers...

[Keith S]

Some people believe (I am merely reporting what I have read, please feel free to refute this or join me on my bandwagon of uncertainty) that de-ionized water somehow has a strong tendency to want to "re-ionize" itself and for that reason is slightly corrosive as it "steals" metal ions from some alloys such as brass in order to achieve some sort of neutrality. I personally feel that this is galvanically impossible, I mean the resulting "ions" would require the water to have an electrical charge, would they not, if there weren't a similar number of some sort of oppositely charged ions also present, like a chloride or something, but what do I know, I'm not a chemist, I'm an aeroplane pilot. I know nothing of these things, but I do know that all kinds of magical malfeasance is attributed to de-ionized water. I use it in my engines, because I figure any sort of "distilled" water must be by definition "de-ionized". Never noticed anything particularly terrible about it.

I guess if I was really scared of de-ionized water, and I believed all the silliness about its corrosive properties, I would just keep my de-ionized water in a container with a sacrificial chunk of brass. Then it could leach ions from this to its heart's content and leave my boilers alone. But somehow I can't be bothered!

[METHSSNIFFER]

From my chemistry no ions means no reaction. Corrosion needs a cathode if there are no charged particles there is no corrosion. As long as the water as a ph of 7 all is ok.

Folks are more like to suffer from corrosion in the respect of dissimilar metals where copper meets silver. Both oxidise at a hell of a rate.
So all your joints need cathodic protection.

[GTB]

but what do I know, I'm not a chemist, I'm an aeroplane pilot. I know nothing of these things, but I do know that all kinds of magical malfeasance is attributed to de-ionized water. I use it in my engines, because I figure any sort of "distilled" water must be by definition "de-ionized".

I remain unconvinced by this 'I'm just a simple pilot routine'.........

You are right, there is no detectable chemical difference between distilled water, dehumidifier condensate, deionized water, water purified by reverse osmosis, or any other form of pure water.

Water of any purity that is in contact with air absorbs gases and pure water left open to air will quickly reach a pH of about 5 due to dissolved carbon dioxide forming carbonic acid.

That's enough to provide an electrolyte for electrolytic corrosion. No commercially available metal is perfectly homogenous in composition and it is this variation that sets up corrosion cells in the metal in the presence of a conducting fluid.

Water can't be completely deionized anyway, as it auto-dissociates into hydronium and hydroxyl ions. pH7 just means the acid and alkali ions are in balance, it gives no indication of the concentration of other ions.


In case anyone wants to question this, my degree was in analytical chemistry and I spent 40 years as an industrial chemist in heavy industry, 20 of those managing the laboratory and providing a service on corrosion issues.


The local tapwater is claimed to be the purest in the country, but I've analysed it in a previous life and I know the dissolved solids level in what comes out of my taps.

Consequently, the boiler feedwater I use in my steam models has been purified by reverse osmosis, which I use because it is easily available. Using deionised water wouldn't worry me, but they don't sell it hereabouts.

Can we get back to running trains now?

Graeme

[MDLR]

Can we get back to running trains now?

Only if you've got the right water to put in the boiler...............

[METHSSNIFFER]

While on the subject of reverse osmosis what membrane do you use. Is this a home set up. I have to say that tap water isn't the best of quality and I filter mine. Though the levels of chlorine remain high there are still loads of dissolved salts of iron, manganese and calcium to name a few.

[rebelego]

..., there is no detectable chemical difference between distilled water, dehumidifier condensate, deionized water, water purified by reverse osmosis, or any other form of pure water.

...

Using deionised water wouldn't worry me, but they don't sell it hereabouts.

Thanks. I'm curious, but no chemist, so I have been wondering about this, but never found any good explanation for why DI water shouldn't be used.
Though, I have been told that the DI prosess introduces H+ ions and thus the resulting water have an excess of H+ (makes it acid?) which makes it agressive to brass. (?)

BTW: Maybe you have some good advice regarding Brass Blackening?
http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about8112.html

[GTB]

While on the subject of reverse osmosis what membrane do you use. Is this a home set up. I have to say that tap water isn't the best of quality and I filter mine. Though the levels of chlorine remain high there are still loads of dissolved salts of iron, manganese and calcium to name a few.

I don't make my own, as it costs less than 1AUD a litre from the local supermarket. Comes in something like a wine cask.

A home RO unit isn't cheap and since I use <10 litres of boiler feedwater a year, I wouldn't live long enough for it to pay for itself. Also, home RO systems have appallingly low efficiency and generate a lot of waste water.

There's a Wikipedia article on the subject if you want details.

Graeme

[GTB]

Though, I have been told that the DI prosess introduces H+ ions and thus the resulting water have an excess of H+ (makes it acid?) which makes it agressive to brass. (?)

I've also seen that, but it is only half the truth.

DI systems have two ion exchange resins in them. One resin replaces the cations (sodium, calcium, etc) with hydrogen ions, the other replaces the anions (chloride, sulphate, etc) with hydroxide ions. The hydrogen and hydroxyl ions react to form water. Basically the process replaces dissolved salt molecules with water molecules.

Distilled water will also remove the zinc from brass. A contract plumber once replaced a leaky fitting in our lab distilled water system with brass instead of copper or plastic. It lasted about 3 months.....

Maybe you have some good advice regarding Brass Blackening?

There are a lot of formulations out there for colouring metals.

I have made my own in the past, but I now use Birchwood Casey Super Liquid Gun Blue on both mild steel and brass. Contrary to the name, the colour isn't blue, it varies from dark brown to jet black, depending on the type of metal being blackened.

Regards,
Graeme

[Boustrophedon]

The most important thing to do is to drain the water that remains in the boiler after a run. As the water boils any impurities and metals dissolved off the boiler walls becomes more concentrated in the water that remains.

Neglect to drain off the remains and all the impurities remaining get added to the next fill and so on.

Slightly hard water will scale up the boiler slowly but this can always be dissolved out, but it will prevent dezincing of the brass fittings.

You pays yer money and takes yer choices.

[GTB]

The most important thing to do is to drain the water that remains in the boiler after a run.

That would be worth doing, especially for brass boilers like Mamods, but only if done properly.

In industry there are two methods to store a boiler if it won't be used for a while.

One is known as water wedging, which means the boiler is filled up completely with treated water and all the air is excluded.

The other method is dry storage. The boiler is completely emptied of water, dried out and left open to the air to make sure it stays that way.

The worst thing to do is to pour the water out of a boiler and then close it up with the inside still wet. You still have enough water left in there for the corrosion process and you've just made space for more oxygen. Dezincification is a corrosion process like any other and according to the literature requires oxygen for the reaction.

There are industrial water treatment chemicals available to limit corrosion of copper based alloys, but I'd be surprised if they are available in less than a 25 litre drum, which would cost a fortune and treat an awful lot of miniature boilers.

Graeme

[GTB]

Only if you've got the right water to put in the boiler...............  :occasion9:  :cya:

Use the wet stuff. Dehydrated water takes too long to come up to the boil........

[rebelego]

Thanks for all the info. Very interesting. Though, I'm not sure if I got it...
Does it make any sense at all to say that RO water and/or dehumidifier condensate are any better?
Or is all the fuzz about not using DI water just based on a myth?

[GTB]

Does it make any sense at all to say that RO water and/or dehumidifier condensate are any better?
Or is all the fuzz about not using DI water just based on a myth?

Pure water is pure water. It doesn't 'know' how it was purified.

I have no idea how the business about DI water got started.

Being a cynical scientist, I'd bet money that some of the bottles sold in the past with distilled water on the label was actually DI water, as it is cheaper to make. These days 'distilled' water is likely to be RO water, as that requires less energy to make.

Graeme