Dream Steam, why I never want to use them again

[ace]

Hi Guys,

After having some issues with Dream Steam after buying some wheel sets from them that were incorrectly quartered, I finally received replacements some 21 days after expressing my dissatisfaction in the wheel sets I had.

Here is the solid set I received.

The opposite coupling rod is installed and this is the result on the other side. I can hardly get this coupling rod on.



Here is the other set I bought, the holed ones. See the rear crank pins are not quartered at all.



See my problem thread here:

http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/about65136.html

I will pull apart my emails and post up the complete conversations between myself and Paul at dream steam for you all to see. To say the least I am totally p1ssed of with them.

I would like anyone to post good or bad experiences on this thread so that we can all have a good balance.

I must say that up until I had this problem, I could not fault Dream Steam. The delivery is fast, parts are reasonably priced and of the most part upgrades are of a good quality.

Why couldn't they just sort my wheels quicker? After promising this and that, it took 21 days?! I look forward to your experiences.

[DolwyddelanLightRail]

As seen on the Mamod Forum but members also on here, you aren't the only one with issues. When someone asks if Dream Steam stuff is worth going for I tell them even if they were the only dealer for mamod parts, do not use them.

[Chris Cairns]

How the mighty have fallen! Only 2 years ago members were singing the praises of Dream Steam ( http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/sutr ... team#60144 ), and now we have members (with some the same in both cases) warning against Dream Steam products, in particular their steel/zinc plated replacement wheels.

For those that are not aware Dream Steam was started by Alan Dunster in 2008 initially selling IP Eng upgrades having bought out most (but not all) of the IP Eng stock from Ivan Prior. As I understood it when the original stock of steel wheels ran out Alan started making his own. Following a change in domestic circumstances Dream Steam was to close, but Paul Fletcher joined as a partner with Alan in Nov 2010 and Dream Steam "moved" from Plymouth to Essex. Alan Dunster left Dream Steam in August 2011, and Dream Steam was then run by the Fletcher family, later moving to Kent.

These steel wheels originate from the 2nd design of wheels used by IP Eng on the IP Jane, but also sold as a Mamod/MSS upgrade. The IP Jane has thicker (and thus less flexible) chassis frames and as a consequence of that the IP Jane chassis spacer as used on their meths burner is shorter than the standard Mamod SL/MSS one. Thus part of the problem trying to get these steel wheels to work properly is you need to trim your chassis spacer (including the one incorporated in the various gas burners) accordingly, and they also do not like a misalignment of the chassis frames fore & aft which the original push in Mamod SL/MSS axle bearings cater for much better.

My experience with Dream Steam steel wheels. My 1st set were bought during the Alan Dunster ownership and are I believe old IP Eng stock. These were fitted to a modified SL1K and after the usual alignment problems ran OK. Since been replaced with a set of re-gauged 45 to 32mm IP Eng holed disk wheels. My 2nd set were bought in 2010 to re-gauge an IP Jane to 32mm and had the anomaly of different external sized bearings fitted to the front & rear axles, requiring different spanners to hold the thin fitting on the outside of the chassis frames whilst tightening the inside nut. These took a long time to be aligned properly and then run in, but worked out OK. Ironically I have won a 2nd hand set of 45mm steel wheels to re-gauge that IP Jane back to 45mm (our railway group has a 45mm indoor layout). My only other dealings with Dream Steam have been for standard MSS parts (only problem I had with these was a badly manufactured MSS regulator/reverser valve which Alan replaced free of charge), some of Alan Dunster's enhancements (chimney cowls & handrails - no problems with these), and a dead leg lubricator which the website said when I ordered would be the new design with the slotted mounting plate, but was delivered as the previous single hole mounting plate (which was not a problem for mounting onto my Mamod Train/Mark I loco).

I have already posted about their rather strange approach to interacting with potential customers at the 16mm NGM AGM Peterborough Show 2013 ( http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about7037.html ) although Doug (dougrail) had a better experience at Elsecar 2013.

Sadly with rising postal costs, etc. one needs to be canny with on-line shopping (we have no 16mm shows in Scotland with the traders like Peterborough, Elsecar, etc.) so I would still consider using Dream Steam to obtain running spares like cylinder gaskets, etc. if their price was right. I have no need for any more steel wheels with plenty of unused Mamod mazak wheels to rebuild, plus a spare set of 32mm steel wheels.

Chris Cairns.

[dougrail]

I have pondered whether their wheel tooling has a flaw which is resulting in this wide range of quartering complaints.

As for my experiences, it has been a mixed bag. A set of supercylinders where one had a loose pushfit cap [twice in two years] and a piston 2mm longer than the other [confirmed by a third party] led me to replace these with another brand of which I have been more than satisfied with since. The first time the cap came off, within a month's use, DS kindly took it and repaired it free of charge. However when it happened again, I was unhappy.

Wheelswise, my first set of wheels are still in good service. A set bought at Elsecar fit nicely with a spare set I had here and so I was able to make a perfectly good rolling chassis for a loco.

[ace]

Ok then, as promised I have trawled through my emails to dig out the important information so I can post a 'no holes barred' account of the whole episode.

There was no way I was going to let this one lie, I had spoken to a solicitor friend of mine and also trading standards and was about to push the button on the whole thing when the parts eventually turned up.

Here is the form submission I sent to Dream steam on the evening of the 8.10.13

For the efforts of simplicity my replies are in blue, dream steams are in green.

Subject: Other
Message:
Hello, I recently bought two wheel sets from you at the elsecar steam show a couple of weeks ago. I have just put these wheels into use and have come across a couple of problems. The first set of plain steel wheels I have installed on my Mamod SL2 and they are slightly out of quarter. I have photographs to show, but basically I cannot get two coupling rods on, one wheel is 1/16th out of quarter. The second set I bought was a pair of holed wheels. I was not impressed by the excess cyanoacrylate on one axle (are the wheels glued on?) and also the rear axle has no quartering at all. The crank pins are in completely the same position both sides, again I have photographs. I am sorry to say that I was warned about this 'out of quarter' problem but have used your upgrade parts since 2010 with the purchase of many spares and two fully upgraded locomotives, frankly I didn't believe what I was being told until now. Obviously I would like the wheels replaced, but I would also like to forward the photos to you to justify what I am saying. Could you please forward an email address to show you?

Regards.......


I then received a reply quite promptly via email and forwarded of the photos in response, this is what I received:


From: Dream Steam Sales [mailto:sales@dream-steam.com]
Sent: 08 October 2013 21:24
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us



Good Evening Mark,



You can email this address (just hit reply) sales@dream-steam.com.

I've not been made aware of any quartering issues so far and we are doing it the same way we have for years, using a lathe setup dedicated to wheel quartering. After quartering on the lathe we check the wheels in a checking jig so they shouldn't have errors but that said if there IS an issue I would sure like to know about it so we can get it resolved and quickly.



The wheels are not glued on, they are interference fit but we do then locked in place after quartering with a tiny amount of waterproof glue to keep things stable.



I am very puzzled and obviously concerned about this including what you may have been told by others as we are not hearing there are issues.



I very much look forward to your feedback.



Kind Regards, Paul.

Dream Steam Ltd


Having read this mail, I am already thinking why lie because I know of at least three different occasions whereby the wheels were out of quarter on this and another forum and they all contacted dream steam about them. So I sent the pictures anyway (the same ones as above) with this reply.



On 8 Oct 2013, at 21:32, Mark Pengelley <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


Hi Paul,



Many thanks for the out of hours response, I am impressed! I have attached four photographs two of each wheel set. The ones on the blue loco are, as I said, just out of quarter. I have used a straight edge to demonstrate the problem. The wheels turn quite freely on their own until you try and fit a second coupling rod in place. And it is quite apparent that one of the holed wheels have never been anywhere near a jig I am sorry to say.



Please see the images for your own information.



Regards,

Mark


I then received this reply shortly later.

From: Dream Steam Sales [mailto:sales@dream-steam.com]
Sent: 08 October 2013 21:43
To: Mark Pengelley
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us



Hi Mark,



I'm burning the midnight oil tonight, stuck in a hotel room with nothing on TV and a laptop with good Wi-Fi.



Can I ask you to post both sets of wheels back to us at:



Dream Steam Ltd.

14 Orchard Avenue,

Aylesford

KENT

ME20 7LY



So I can take a good look at them. I will clearly issue you with replacements and refund your postage costs. I'm very keen to get this bottomed out.



Thanks again, Paul.


We then passed a couple of emails between ourselves that were not relevant to the wheels after the one below. For the purposes of continuity I have edited these in (13.2.14).


On 8 Oct 2013, at 21:48, Mark Pengelley <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Hi Paul,



Of course I will send them back to you. I feel lucky that you are bored, and good Wi-Fi in a hotel? That is the first I have heard of that! J



I will get them boxed up effective immediately and post them off recorded delivery tomorrow. Many thanks for the fast response and hopefully a quick resolution.



Regards,

Mark


This mail followed, clearly promising a replacement set of wheels to be sent out on the Monday.



Sent: 08 October 2013 21:59
To: Mark Pengelley
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us

Hi Mark,

Yes making the most of the WiFi while it works…. That's put the kiss of death on it..

That's great I'm back on Friday so will take a look, I also what to check current stocks, so it will be Monday before I send out replacements as I clearly want to ensure what you get is good and correctly quartered stock.

Kind Regards, Paul.

As you can see I was actually promised replacement sets of wheels to be dispatched to me on Monday 15th October. Going from previous experience with dealing with new orders parts normally arrived the following day or the day after.

From: Mark Pengelley [xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 08 October 2013 22:02
To: 'Dream Steam Sales'
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Contact Us

Hi Paul,

Thanks again, I look forward to hearing your thoughts. Good luck with your Wi-Fi! ;-)

Regards,
Mark


The following day, as discussed with Paul, I boxed up the faulty wheel sets and sent them to the address provided in the email above, on a 'special delivery' service due to the cost of the insurance cover.

I followed up with the email below to let him know that I had sent the wheels.

From: "Mark Pengelley" <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 9 October 2013 14:44:32 BST
To: "'Dream Steam Sales'" <sales@dream-steam.com>
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Contact Us

Hi Paul,



Just a quick mail to let you know that the two wheel sets are on their way, posted 1st class recorded delivery (the cost was £4.10). Just a quick note, I handled the un holed wheel sets a little more and I believe I have found the problem with them. Basically the wheels are loose on the axles, both front and rear. I am able to move them about on their axles by hand, very odd?



Regards,

Mark


I heard nothing of confirmation of the understanding that I had sent the wheels back or the cost and I didn't receive any correspondence that the wheels arrived safely, I knew they had because I had them tracked online.

So, we fast forward from the 9th of October to the 17th, with no word of what is going on. I am left to chase Paul at dream steam. Bearing in mind I am expected to receive replacement wheels on the 16th October.

I sent this:

From: Mark Pengelley <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: 17 October 2013 00:26:22 BST
To: "sales@dream-steam.com" <sales@dream-steam.com>
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Contact Us

Hi Paul,



I thought I'd drop you a quick mail to see how you are getting on with my wheels? I am eager to hear what the conclusion of the problems are. Would you please let me know where you are with them, as you did say about sending out replacements on Monday?



Regards,

Mark


I heard nothing....  

So with my tether getting increasingly shorter due to the lack of communication, I sent this on the 21st October:

On 21 Oct 2013, at 19:13, Mark Pengelley <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:





Hi Paul,



How are the two sets of wheels getting on? I was expecting replacement sets to be sent out on Monday last week (14th October) and have not heard a thing from you or your office. I am usually quite a patient person, but the lack of contact I find a little unprofessional and frankly quite unbecoming. I must say you are starting to loose me as a customer and frankly I feel this is a bit of a kick in the teeth as I have always stuck by your company when others have said not to. Your products have always been top notch and I have seldom strayed to another supplier because of this, I cannot think of the amount of money myself and my Dad must have spent with you over the years, but I am sure it runs into the thousands. So please can you have a look at the wheels, confirm there is something wrong with them and come back to me with a resolution? I am not your average home user and I know when something is wrong and can usually work around it, but loose wheels on the solid set and way out quartering on the holed set is quite obvious.



I am very much looking forward to your reply, if you need to talk to me then please call me on 07xxxxxxxxx.



Mark Pengelley


To my surprise I received a prompt reply that evening, that was full of reasons. If I had just been kept up to date, then I wouldn't have had to reply with such force....

From: Dream Steam Sales [mailto:sales@dream-steam.com]
Sent: 21 October 2013 23:11
To: Mark Pengelley
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us



Good Evening Mark,



After an end to end check of the process here I'm pleased to say I have located the issue with the wheels.



I now have good sets that I've checked over this afternoon and will be dispatch new ones to you tomorrow, we will also include a cheque to cover your postage costs.



Sorry for the delay - I needed to be sure of what was going wrong.





Kind Regards, Paul.

Dream Steam Ltd.


I was glad to hear the problem had been located, but I didn't want a cheque, so I sent:

From: Mark Pengelley [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 21 October 2013 23:19
To: 'Dream Steam Sales'
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Contact Us



Good evening Paul,



Thank you for your reply, I look forward to receiving the wheel sets back. I do hope that it wasn’t anything serious wrong at your end? With regard to the postage, could you send me a voucher or put a credit on my account, I am sure to use it in the future? It would be of more a hindrance than a help to send a cheque, I hardly ever go to the bank you see.



Regards,

Mark


The response with an answer to my question was not to be found.....

So this one went off....

On 25 Oct 2013, at 14:47, Mark Pengelley <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Hello Paul,



I am a little concerned that it is now Friday and you promised me on Monday evening (21st) that you would post out the replacement wheel sets on Tuesday (22nd). From previous experience your parcels arrive the next day or the day after, could you advise me what has gone wrong?



I am eager to get these wheels back so I can continue with my on-going projects as I have two models totally in bits on the bench with no parts to put them together.



Would you be kind enough to respond to my questions as soon as possible so I not left hanging waiting again?



Regards,
Mark


Fair enough? The time delays and empty promises are adding up so far.

On 25 Oct 2013, at 15:01, "Dream Steam Sales" <sales@dream-steam.com> wrote:

Good Afternoon Mark,



Odd, and I'm glad you have let me know.



I will check the details of the dispatch and come back to you, but it may be tomorrow before I know anything. Be assured, that if needed I will just issue repeat sets to get you going again. It is very rare for parcels to go missing, I can only count on one hand the number that have in the 3 years we have been running Dream Steam. As you say normally the parcels are next day, so something it not right.



Did you have any other outstanding questions for me?



Thanks, Paul.


I did have questions, what about the credit?

On 25/10/2013 15:21, Mark Pengelley wrote:

Hi Paul,



Thank you for coming back to me so promptly.



The only question that you haven't answered is the one about the refund on postage. I wondered if you would be kind enough to put the £4.10 on my account for a future order or send me a gift voucher or credit note or something similar. Is this possible?



Regards,

Mark



Shortly followed by:

From: Dream Steam Sales [mailto:sales@dream-steam.com]
Sent: 25 October 2013 16:52
To: Mark Pengelley
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us



Hi Mark

We have added £4.10 to your account in the form of loyalty points, they are already on your account and available to use now.

Kind Regards

Ruth


At last, some unprompted responce. I have checked my account to see if the credit is there and it is, the system works!

From: Mark Pengelley [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: 25 October 2013 17:07
To: 'Dream Steam Sales'
Subject: RE: Form Submission: Contact Us



Thanks Ruth,



That is very much appreciated. I look forward to getting the replacement wheel sets.



Regards,

Mark


So I let three days go past, no communication, no follow up the next day as promised. What the HELL is going on? So I try to call them. NO answer, straight to answer machine......

Leave a message requesting a call back, NOTHING. FFS!

With more anger I reply with this.

On 28/10/2013 23:03, Mark Pengelley wrote:

Hello again Paul,



I have to say this is getting a little tedious. As I said before I am usually quite a patient person but I am finding this situation quite trying. Why is it that I am always the one to chase you? You do not off your own bat contact me and I have to prompt a reply first. I simply do not care what happened to the ‘lost’ wheels any more, the fact is that I do not have my working replacements yet. I bought these wheels in good faith and that they were fit for purpose and it is very clear that they were not. We are talking about the best part of £70 worth of parts that I do not have, at the Elsecar show I could quite have easily have spent that money elsewhere. The bottom line is, I still have two models disassembled on the bench that I dearly want to get back together. It pains me to say it because I have been reluctant to use anyone else for spare/upgraded parts and have always recommended you to others, but I am starting to lose faith in your company.



If you cannot get some working replacement wheels to me in 48 hours I am going to have to ask for my money back and I will be forced to go elsewhere.



This is totally ridiculous and so easily remedied, I really don’t know what the problem is, can you answer me this?



Another thing, I try to call the main number (08450 773 007) during the hours stated on the website (once today and once on Friday) and I had to leave a message. Fine fair enough, away from the office or on another call. But does anyone check the messages? I clearly left my name and a contact number and a request for a return call that I never received.



I would be grateful of that call back so we can talk about this in a civil manner. Once again my number is 0xxxxxxxxxx, I am available all day on that number.



Please can this be rectified in the time specified, in my eyes it is simple. Faulty parts need exchanging, send re checked replacements, problem solved and happy customer.





Mark




It is simple really isn't it? Am I really being awkward by wanting something to be 'correct'?

And finally I get this back

From: Dream Steam Sales
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 10:06 AM
To: Mark Pengelley
Subject: Re: Form Submission: Contact Us

Good  morning,

Your tracking number is KFxxxxxxxxxGB, sent Royal Mail first class recorded delivery.

Kind Regards

Ruth

And as if by magic, the parcel turns up an hour later.

My days was that painful! Better still the holed wheel sets I got back, were loose on the axles! I am not even going to try and send them back again, I will end up driving up there and seeing them in person if I got the same treatment.

This is all true so cannot be construed as slanderous. It took 3 weeks to get the wheels back, whereby if I ordered new ones online, I'd have them the very next working day....

My advise?

Stay well clear......

[dougrail]

So three weeks, resistance and a replacement set which are duff?

Is bad mate, really sorry to hear this has happened.

[ace]

Thanks for your sympathy Doug,

For the record I haven't even voiced my displeasure about the faulty replacement set. I figured that if they were hand checked, they would'nt get any better so why bother. Ill just fix them myself and put that time and effort to a bad effort.

[LnBmad]

That is some crappy service. Sorry to hear you've had a tough time of it. Hopefully with a little work you can make the faulty parts work for you and get these models running!

[Lner fan Sam]

My loco came from dreamsteam as a kit and it was ordered in November last year and arrived at my house about a week later. My loco was ordered through the phone and my dad was answered straight away by them. I also got a safety valve from them and it is yet to be used (so we will see weather their bad quality has affected steam fittings aswell ).

Now Roy wood is who I use but at elsecar I overheard that Paul at dreamsteam had brought with him seven upgrade boilers and had sold a good number of them. I only hope that the boilers don't suffer from the same quality control as other products have.

[dougrail]

From the complaints, it seems just to be the wheels. Anyone got any other complaints? I must say to be fair I've not heard any other parts being problematic.

[ace]

From the complaints, it seems just to be the wheels. Anyone got any other complaints? I must say to be fair I've not heard any other parts being problematic.

It would be handy to know if other parts are still safe to use.

[Chris Cairns]

Ace,

Many thanks for your comprehensive posting. I can only sympathise with your disappointment & anger over this example of some very poor engineering & customer service. I trust that you can move on from these failures in the same way that Greg (Narrow Minded) & Peter (Superbiker_uk) have had to do from the same failures.

What I do not understand is your title says "Why I never want to use them again" but you requested a credit for the postal charge refund. Does this mean you may actually use them again, or was it just that a BACS or electronic transfer was not offered or available?

With regards to safety of using other upgrade parts I would definitely insist on a proper boiler certificate for the copper boilers.

Sam (Lner fan Sam) if you have any doubts about your safety valve I'm sure your colleagues at Beamish could arrange a monitored test using compressed air (saves the risk of getting scolded with wet steam) - if it is the 1/4" x 40ME one it should be set for 40-45PSI, otherwise the 1/4" x 26BSF one should be set for 20-25PSI

Chris Cairns.

[Lner fan Sam]

A test at beamish will be conducted and I will see what comes about.

Just asked a freind about a story he had about a dreamsteam boiler and apparently this boiler was set at 60 psi and the pressure gauge broke. Then the paint started burning off the copper and the bottom fitting on the sight glass failed. (yeah I know sounds a bit drastic but I am told that this certainly true.)

And these boilers are tested to 80psi?

The mamod it was fitted to was then consigned to the spares box...

[Chris Cairns]

The Dream Steam boiler is designed to operate up to 45PSI, the safety valve they supply should be set to 40-45PSI and their current pressure gauge only goes to 50PSI. So was that boiler actually regularly operated above the maximum working pressure, which could explain the subsequent failures experienced?

Although the 16mm Association Insurance requirement for boilers ( http://www.16mm.org.uk/newsite/insurance/default.html ) that exceed the 3 Bar limit is for a hydraulic test to 1 & 1/2 times the working pressure, I believe some boiler manufacturers hydraulic test their boilers to twice the normal working pressure before issuing a boiler certificate (certainly the only boiler certificates I have are for Cheddar Models boilers which have been so tested).

The only paint method I've seen that seems to hold up to externally gas fired pot boilers is stove enamelled. Cheddar Models used that method and their boilers were fitted in some IP Jane's before they ceased trading.

Chris Cairns.

[Lner fan Sam]

I over heard Paul at elsecar saying that the boilers are tested at double the working pressure.

[Chris Cairns]

Never bought a Dream Steam boiler direct (got mine 2nd hand off eBay) - do they actually issue a boiler certificate?

Chris Cairns.

[Lner fan Sam]

Yeah I think so Paul said they come with one at elsecar.

[dougrail]

From memory, in correspondence with Alan at PPS when I was shopping, I seme to recall that PPS boilers were also tested to double working pressure.

However, PPS on their website and in several old editions of Garden Rail also advertised their Janets and boilers as designed for 65psi running. Their pressure gauge is up to 80psi.

[Chris Cairns]

We've had a similar discussion on these various Mamodification manufacturer pressure standards before and Sam's quoted scenario helps to perhaps highlight the mix & match with fittings that goes on with the 2nd hand market.

Whilst we are agreed that the 1/4" x 26BSF fittings are only fit for use in soft soldered brass boilers up to 25PSI, we have 2 different standards for the 1/4" x 40ME fittings. So if they do not come with a certificate how do you know its origin (IP Eng, PPS, Dream Steam, RWM, Mike Chaney plus others) and thus what pressure setting it should be used at?

In the case of boilers my Mike Chaney boiler is stamped 50PSI, there are no markings on my PPS 4 insert boiler, and I do not recall any markings on the Dream steam boiler (sold on to a new owner).

Wish I had the machinery & skills to produce banjo bolt fittings & syphon tubes - would make fitting a pressure gauge for testing purposes to every locomotive more practical.

Chris Cairns.

[Lner fan Sam]

I believe rwm boilers are marked and at elsecar I saw the ever present CE mark on the dreamsteam boilers.