Hi ive just brought a butane/propane gas fired live steam loco but having had no experience with live steam before i was wondering if you could answer a few questions please:
1. where can i buy propane/butane gas suitable for live steam?
2. where and which oil should i use for the lubricator and to oil the loco before running session?
3. And do live steam locos need special water? or can they use medium strength tap water?
cheers
Joe
Live steam locomotive must haves?
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kandnwlr
Re: Live steam locomotive must haves?
The K&NWLR is in France, so I can´t help you directly with sourcing, but here is a reaction to your questions:Joe:106787 wrote:Hi ive just brought a butane/propane gas fired live steam loco but having had no experience with live steam before i was wondering if you could answer a few questions please:
1. where can i buy propane/butane gas suitable for live steam?
2. where and which oil should i use for the lubricator and to oil the loco before running session?
3. And do live steam locos need special water? or can they use medium strength tap water?
cheers
Joe
1. I get mine in small Camping Gaz cylinders from the DIY shop, but there are lots of makes out there. You need to make sure that you have the right connector between the gas valve on the loco and your gas canister.
2. You should be looking for "steam oil" from the usual garden railway suppliers.
3. They do need "special water". I buy distilled water from the same DIY shop. Opinions differ about whether de-ionized water is suitable, and I will leave that to others to debate.
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Big Jim
Hello Joe,
What have you bought?
Gas, you can use standard lighter gas refill cans. Better are the cans sold in camping shops or DIY stores but you will need an adapter, these are available from many of the 16mm suppliers such as Chuffed 2 Bits.
Oil, It depends on what loco you have. Older Roundhouse engines and pretty much anything else use 460 grade oil. Newer Roundhouse engines use 220 grade. The best stuff to use for the motion and axles is IMHO standard motor oil. (try Brandbright)
Water, Tap water is not a good idea. The best thing to use is water from a dehumidifier. Failing that well filtered rainwater (use filter paper.
Have a look at other posts on here for other ideas or information.
What have you bought?
Gas, you can use standard lighter gas refill cans. Better are the cans sold in camping shops or DIY stores but you will need an adapter, these are available from many of the 16mm suppliers such as Chuffed 2 Bits.
Oil, It depends on what loco you have. Older Roundhouse engines and pretty much anything else use 460 grade oil. Newer Roundhouse engines use 220 grade. The best stuff to use for the motion and axles is IMHO standard motor oil. (try Brandbright)
Water, Tap water is not a good idea. The best thing to use is water from a dehumidifier. Failing that well filtered rainwater (use filter paper.
Have a look at other posts on here for other ideas or information.
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funandtrains
It most areas you should never use tap water as this will result in limescale or sediment in the boiler, distilled water if available should be used. I have a condenser tumble dryer which I filter the water from being a free alternative. Some people use filtered rain water but this has to be fresh and can be contaminated so I avoid this.
Most new locos can use butane/propane mix which can easily be found in DIY stores as blow lamp gas. Pure butane in harder to find but this can be found for camping stoves howver you will need to buy a special adapter.
Most dealer that sell live steam locos will have the correct steam oil.
Most new locos can use butane/propane mix which can easily be found in DIY stores as blow lamp gas. Pure butane in harder to find but this can be found for camping stoves howver you will need to buy a special adapter.
Most dealer that sell live steam locos will have the correct steam oil.
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Joe
Hi thanks for advice everyone, Big jim i have brought a heavily modified mamod with a brand new copper boiler and butane/propane burner, plus new gas tank and gas control, regulator, lubricator with lubricator blow down tap, water top up valve, cylinder covers, Safety valve and additional bunker area etc its only been steamed once so should be a good runner, i will share pics and vids when i receive it
cheers
Joe
cheers
Joe
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Joe
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Joe
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Joe
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Big Jim
Probably to thin.
Any oil is better than none. However if you use an oil that is too thin, it wont stay where you want it to stay. Too thick an oil can give you another problem. Basically any thing that is running in the garden is exposed to muck and dirt, oil will pick up dirt and the result is a wonderful grinding paste that will accelerate wear. If the oil is too thick it will just stick in the joints and any particles in it will cause wear. Thick oil can also make joints quite stiff.
What I do is this. After I have finished running I clean the motion etc, with a few blasts of WD40 (This will also prevent rust) and a rag to get the muck off. When I get the loco out next time I just oil round with an oilcan filled with 5w30 engine oil (the grade does not matter, I just have a 45 gal drum of the stuff!)
Other people will tell you that 3 in 1 oil will do the job and it probably will.
If you are buying WD40 don't bother with the spray cans. Find a local motor factors, (where the trade get their stuff, not Halfords) and buy a gallon can of it, it comes with a re fillable spray bottle and it will set you back around 20 quid and it will last for years. Not only is it cheaper as you are buying in bulk but it is all oil not oil/propellant mix. (There are similar products such as Duck Oil and they all work well)
I am certain that others out there will add their own opinions.
Any oil is better than none. However if you use an oil that is too thin, it wont stay where you want it to stay. Too thick an oil can give you another problem. Basically any thing that is running in the garden is exposed to muck and dirt, oil will pick up dirt and the result is a wonderful grinding paste that will accelerate wear. If the oil is too thick it will just stick in the joints and any particles in it will cause wear. Thick oil can also make joints quite stiff.
What I do is this. After I have finished running I clean the motion etc, with a few blasts of WD40 (This will also prevent rust) and a rag to get the muck off. When I get the loco out next time I just oil round with an oilcan filled with 5w30 engine oil (the grade does not matter, I just have a 45 gal drum of the stuff!)
Other people will tell you that 3 in 1 oil will do the job and it probably will.
If you are buying WD40 don't bother with the spray cans. Find a local motor factors, (where the trade get their stuff, not Halfords) and buy a gallon can of it, it comes with a re fillable spray bottle and it will set you back around 20 quid and it will last for years. Not only is it cheaper as you are buying in bulk but it is all oil not oil/propellant mix. (There are similar products such as Duck Oil and they all work well)
I am certain that others out there will add their own opinions.
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DLRdan
Hi Joe
For oiling round as others have said you need two oils, one for lubricating the motion (bits that move) and one for filling the lubricator. My Mamods aren't particularly fussy about what thickness of steam oil they have in the lubricators, as long as they have some. Most suppliers of garden railways should be able to provide you with some.
Gas can be purchased in a variety of ways. Lighter refills are one readily avaliable source but are expensive, the best way to do it is with either the gas bottles designed for camping stoves (avaliable at Argos, Wilkinsons, camping shops, etc) or with the bottles for blow torches (B&Q, Wickes). The latter will need an adaptor but the camping bottles should fit straight away if the tank is romoveable.
Ah yes, the tricky subject of water. Using tap water varies greatly from place to place, I've used it for years with only minor scale whereas a friend can scale up a boiler in a month. Best thing is to look in your kettle. Dehumidifiers, contensing tumble driers and rain water are good sources once filtered.
Almost forgot, you will probably want a water top up bottle too.
For oiling round as others have said you need two oils, one for lubricating the motion (bits that move) and one for filling the lubricator. My Mamods aren't particularly fussy about what thickness of steam oil they have in the lubricators, as long as they have some. Most suppliers of garden railways should be able to provide you with some.
Gas can be purchased in a variety of ways. Lighter refills are one readily avaliable source but are expensive, the best way to do it is with either the gas bottles designed for camping stoves (avaliable at Argos, Wilkinsons, camping shops, etc) or with the bottles for blow torches (B&Q, Wickes). The latter will need an adaptor but the camping bottles should fit straight away if the tank is romoveable.
Ah yes, the tricky subject of water. Using tap water varies greatly from place to place, I've used it for years with only minor scale whereas a friend can scale up a boiler in a month. Best thing is to look in your kettle. Dehumidifiers, contensing tumble driers and rain water are good sources once filtered.
Almost forgot, you will probably want a water top up bottle too.
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Big Jim
Forgot to say, one bit of advice that I ignored only once.
Never, put an engine away in its box while still warm.
The amount of rust that grew on my very first Mamod after storing it away for a fortnight in a sealed box (NATO 7.62mm ammo boxes are brilliant for mamod storage.) had to be seen to be believed.
Never, put an engine away in its box while still warm.
The amount of rust that grew on my very first Mamod after storing it away for a fortnight in a sealed box (NATO 7.62mm ammo boxes are brilliant for mamod storage.) had to be seen to be believed.
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steampig
Don't be tempted to use pure (deionised or distilled) water in your boiler, particularly if brass. It will certainly leave no deposit when it boils, but is so pure it is corrosive and will selectively dissolve the zinc from the brass, eventually puncturing it (the dreaded 'dezinc'). A mix of pure and boiled tap water is sometimes recommended, say 5 to 1 - substantially less evaporative deposit, but not pure enough to dezinc. A light 'lime' deposit can be cleaned out chemically, but you can never put the zinc back.DLRdan:106808 wrote: Best thing is to look in your kettle. Dehumidifiers, contensing tumble driers and rain water are good sources once filtered ... .
The condensed waters Dan mentions have already taken up most of anything they want to dissolve from the condenser cores, and are good (although I reckon there's a lot of fabric conditioner in my tumble-drier water).
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Joe
Yeah, my boiler is a copper one so would it matter with that? and would one of these solutions work? http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Distilled-Water
cheers
Joe
cheers
Joe
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steampig
Get deionised or distilled water from your motor-spares shop or chemist. (Deionised and distilled water are both highly purified waters - distilled water is made by the energy-intensive method described in your link (boiling and condensing), deionised (I think) is made by reverse-osmosis and vastly cheaper in fuel use. The difference in the resulting product is mostly a labelling issue.)
I think I would still hesitate to use very pure water in a copper boiler, but all my engines have brass boilers.
All these issues are discussed from time to time at http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/
which deals in model steam in general, not just railways, and where a lot of the 'steamers' on this forum also hang out. Recommended.
I think I would still hesitate to use very pure water in a copper boiler, but all my engines have brass boilers.
All these issues are discussed from time to time at http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/
which deals in model steam in general, not just railways, and where a lot of the 'steamers' on this forum also hang out. Recommended.
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Chris Cairns
- Driver
- Posts: 2372
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:25 pm
- Location: Glasgow, Scotland
I assume you won this Mamod - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAMOD-locomot ... 1e971be488
If so worth pointing out that it has original wheels which are known to work loose eventually, and the cylinders are mis-matched (different end caps).
I've standardised on using Roundhouse 220 steam oil for use in my Mamod/MSS fleet although if I have a particularly leaky reverser valve or cylinder end cap I use 460 steam oil.
Motion oil has already been covered above - I'm slowly working my way through a supply of various Mamod/MSS lubricating oils supplied with the locos.
For gas you will need an EN417 gas adapter if using the screw fitted self sealing cannisters, and a different adapter if using the camping gas type cannisters. If it is that eBay Mamod as above you would also get away with using ordinary lighter refills as that gas tank is not too inaccessible. Worth pointing out that Butane only gas will not work pretty much below 5° C (this time of the year) so at those low temperatures we tend to use a 30% Propane/70% Butane mix gas. Go System gas is used a lot by the Garden Railway community (it is the brand sold by the traders at the various shows) but I've suffered lots of blocked jets using that brand. I use the camping gas butane as sold by Asda, B & M, etc. and picked up the mixed Propane/Butane gas from Lidl (used in their flame weed killer). However these are all seasonally stocked items so not available in the dead of winter usually.
Water is very much a controversial subject and you will not find agreement on the definitive solution. Generally accepted not to use Deionised Water (some of the Distilled Water sold in the UK is actually Deionised) as it can cause problems with Dezinc on brass boilers, and equally effect silver solder joints on copper boilers. I use South Lanarkshire tap water which is 39 PPM and not had any problems (equally we run our full size Andrew Barclay loco on untreated East Ayrshire tap water).
Your Mamod is already heavy modified (and if it is that eBay listing as above a rare centre flue boiler to boot) but lots of good reference material here - http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about7948.html
Chris Cairns
If so worth pointing out that it has original wheels which are known to work loose eventually, and the cylinders are mis-matched (different end caps).
I've standardised on using Roundhouse 220 steam oil for use in my Mamod/MSS fleet although if I have a particularly leaky reverser valve or cylinder end cap I use 460 steam oil.
Motion oil has already been covered above - I'm slowly working my way through a supply of various Mamod/MSS lubricating oils supplied with the locos.
For gas you will need an EN417 gas adapter if using the screw fitted self sealing cannisters, and a different adapter if using the camping gas type cannisters. If it is that eBay Mamod as above you would also get away with using ordinary lighter refills as that gas tank is not too inaccessible. Worth pointing out that Butane only gas will not work pretty much below 5° C (this time of the year) so at those low temperatures we tend to use a 30% Propane/70% Butane mix gas. Go System gas is used a lot by the Garden Railway community (it is the brand sold by the traders at the various shows) but I've suffered lots of blocked jets using that brand. I use the camping gas butane as sold by Asda, B & M, etc. and picked up the mixed Propane/Butane gas from Lidl (used in their flame weed killer). However these are all seasonally stocked items so not available in the dead of winter usually.
Water is very much a controversial subject and you will not find agreement on the definitive solution. Generally accepted not to use Deionised Water (some of the Distilled Water sold in the UK is actually Deionised) as it can cause problems with Dezinc on brass boilers, and equally effect silver solder joints on copper boilers. I use South Lanarkshire tap water which is 39 PPM and not had any problems (equally we run our full size Andrew Barclay loco on untreated East Ayrshire tap water).
Your Mamod is already heavy modified (and if it is that eBay listing as above a rare centre flue boiler to boot) but lots of good reference material here - http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about7948.html
Chris Cairns
Last edited by Chris Cairns on Mon Dec 29, 2014 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe
Hi chris thanks for all the advice, as you can gather i am a complete newbie to this but will i need to do anything to the loco when i receive it as far as the cylinders and wheels are concerned? i think you can get the wheels from grs but not sure about cylindersChris Cairns:106815 wrote:I assume you won this Mamod - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MAMOD-locomot ... 1e971be488
If so worth pointing out that it has original wheels which are known to work loose eventually, and the cylinders are mis-matched (different end caps).
Chris Cairns
cheers
Joe
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Joe
ok cheers steam pigsteampig:106814 wrote:Get deionised or distilled water from your motor-spares shop or chemist. (Deionised and distilled water are both highly purified waters - distilled water is made by the energy-intensive method described in your link (boiling and condensing), deionised (I think) is made by reverse-osmosis and vastly cheaper in fuel use. The difference in the resulting product is mostly a labelling issue.)
I think I would still hesitate to use very pure water in a copper boiler, but all my engines have brass boilers.
All these issues are discussed from time to time at http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/
which deals in model steam in general, not just railways, and where a lot of the 'steamers' on this forum also hang out. Recommended.
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