Friog 0-4-0 'Punch'

[mhlr]

Friog are making locos again, have a look:

http://www.friograil.co.uk/page4.html

[pauly]

I really like the look of that

[Sir haydn]

Roger tried to re-release the Natalie Ann not long back but there wasn't enough interest. I fear without any advertising the same may happen here

[mhlr]

I fear without any advertising the same may happen here

Well, that's what I'm trying to do here

However, I don't think I'll be registering interest as I'm a steamer man, and £350 could buy one But, I can see it's a lovely model and diesel worshippers may like it, especially with that tastey jack shaft set-up.

[Hancockshire]

tastey jack shaft set-up

Why does that sound SO wrong
It is nice but that price tag's a little hefty but if it's to get the company going again, it could be considered reasonable

[mhlr]

Ugh, typical of you hancockshire!!

[Hancockshire]

Ugh, typical of you hancockshire!!  :roll:

It's not my fault I've got the maturity & brilliance of Richie from Bottom. Not quite all of his traits but still, I suffer from double entendre disease
I looked at the other things. A replacement Viking chassis which is nothing but a few pieces of steel, wheels, bearings (presumably), chain, gears & motor would set you back £180!!!! Leaches

[TonyW]

I looked at the other things. A replacement Viking chassis which is nothing but a few pieces of steel, wheels, bearings (presumably), chain, gears & motor would set you back £180!!!! Leaches

That is the difference between making stuff as a hobby and making stuff to put food on the table.

[Hancockshire]

I looked at the other things. A replacement Viking chassis which is nothing but a few pieces of steel, wheels, bearings (presumably), chain, gears & motor would set you back £180!!!! Leaches

That is the difference between making stuff as a hobby and making stuff to put food on the table.

Yeah but still, not everybody's ar$es are lined with diamonds are they? If the price was lower then it might draw more attention which would give the company more profits in the long run. If they advertise products that are better in price, then they'd be mobbed. What I don't understand is why they made chassis for RTR locos that already have good chassis. It's a waste of time. I mean, look at that punch loco, like the Porsche 928, it has far more well priced rivals. Look at Andel's O&K locos, they are like the Ford Capri, far better value for money & it's got nicer looks. Look at that punch thing, it's awful (I have an eye for design). I do like the name though, it's what I would do to the guy who designed it (I kid). No, for the price, I'd rather choose an Andel O&K

[Dr. Bond of the DVLR]

There's an awful lot of work that goes into making a model like that and it is that that drives the price up. People like to get at least 10 pounds an hour. Also that friog will be able to haul much more than an AnDel O and K.

In general the ruling is you get out what you pay in weather you pay in money or time and skill making your own.

[Hancockshire]

There's an awful lot of work that goes into making a model like that and it is that that drives the price up. People like to get at least 10 pounds an hour. Also that friog will be able to haul much more than an AnDel O and K.

In general the ruling is you get out what you pay in weather you pay in money or time and skill making your own.

I'll still stick to my point, £350 is way too much to sell a model with all the competition it's got. I mean look at an Andel Moelwyn for example. Both are manually operated (I know that Moelwyn is available with RC but in my argument, I'm going to use the manual) , both are rechargeable, both have coupled wheels but Moelwyn is based on a prototype & is cheaper. Do the math, Friog are selling that thing at too high a cost. It won't last long, I'll guarantee it. I mean, who would want to buy an engine for their railway but could only choose those two & go for the Friog. No one. I'm sticking to my opinion. I know a rip off when I see one & I'm afraid gentlemen (& ladies if any are present) that the Friog is

[Sir Clothem Cap]

it is a lot of money but craftsmanship costs. mechanical precision isn't cheap (apart from certain second hand mamods)

[90733]

The Andel loco is now more due to VAT I like, a lot really, not a prototype modeller, my railway, although I like the andel loco really, but would prefer one of these However I agree with the price, can't spend that on a battery loco at the moment, or well off to find a chassis and scratchbuild a look alike

[Hancockshire]

it is a lot of money but craftsmanship costs. mechanical precision isn't cheap (apart from certain second hand mamods)

I'm sorry but Friog are crossing a thin line between love & hate. Craftsmanship doesn't cut it with the amount of competition that they are facing. There are many better models on the market & an ugly engine at a rip off price wont win. The company will fail with this one. I'll use the sports car example again. Think of Punch as a Reliant Scimitar GTE. Not very good looking & very expensive but look at Andel's locomotives. They are like MGBs & Capris, very well priced & look the part. If anyone buys that thing, I wont hold a grudge but I will warn you all now, it's a mistake. I once bought a Faller road system set. Lots of money & it broke very easily two weeks after a 6 month wait for arrival. One of you lot will regret buying it & I'll be the one saying 'I told you so' (also, Mamods are magic things )

[Sir Clothem Cap]

as the showman says "you pay your money you take your choice."

[Sir haydn]

There's an awful lot of work that goes into making a model like that and it is that that drives the price up. People like to get at least 10 pounds an hour. Also that friog will be able to haul much more than an AnDel O and K.

In general the ruling is you get out what you pay in weather you pay in money or time and skill making your own.

I'll still stick to my point, £350 is way too much to sell a model with all the competition it's got. I mean look at an Andel Moelwyn for example. Both are manually operated (I know that Moelwyn is available with RC but in my argument, I'm going to use the manual) , both are rechargeable, both have coupled wheels but Moelwyn is based on a prototype & is cheaper. Do the math, Friog are selling that thing at too high a cost. It won't last long, I'll guarantee it. I mean, who would want to buy an engine for their railway but could only choose those two & go for the Friog. No one. I'm sticking to my opinion. I know a rip off when I see one & I'm afraid gentlemen (& ladies if any are present) that the Friog is

No Way is it a rip off. It isnt even competition for andel anyway there are 2 totally different markets here! There is the small industrial type market of which IP engineering make the cheaper models and andel produce the higher end, then there is the large work horse diesels of which, essel, friog and roundhouse.... produce. I dont think the model is over priced at all, Friog have a very high spec build quality and roger hine has been making them for years!!! the internal chassis for the accy viking and baguley where to make the locos capable of pulling more and extending there life aswell as making it a damn sight heavier. I have seen one of rogers modded baguleys against a stock one and the difference is worth the money!it pulled 2 lady annes a billy and a rake of wagons! I'd like to see one with a plastic chassis do that.

[DVT Dweller]

No Way is it a rip off. It isnt even competition for andel anyway there are 2 totally different markets here! There is the small industrial type market of which IP engineering make the cheaper models and andel produce the higher end, then there is the large work horse diesels of which, essel, friog and roundhouse.... produce. I dont think the model is over priced at all, Friog have a very high spec build quality and roger hine has been making them for years!!! the internal chassis for the accy viking and baguley where to make the locos capable of pulling more and extending there life aswell as making it a damn sight heavier. I have seen one of rogers modded baguleys against a stock one and the difference is worth the money!it pulled 2 lady annes a billy and a rake of wagons! I'd like to see one with a plastic chassis do that.

Glad to see someone preaching from the same book. Dont get me wrong I like the stuff Andy has done and top marks that he has covered areas in the market that badly needed it, but for £23 extra you can have a rescue loco that will bring back a failed steamer and the train, now thats what I like. If Im going to buy a loco its to be a work horse. My old Friog needs a little t&c so I will be getting in contact Roger so he can weave his magic. Its that strong a loco I remeber it dragging my Merlin dead from one end of the Winster valley railway to the other after the steam loco had a servo failure.

As Matt has said its 2 different markets, Andy has gone for well built detailed locos that look right, Roger has gone for a solid work horse and both of them are at the right price for the amount of work that both gent's will have put into producing them.

[Tom]

***** WARNING - SMALL ESSAY FOLLOWS *****

I couldnt agree with DVT Dweller, Sir Hadyn (just to name a few) anymore youve all hit the nail on the head, I can see where your coming from Hancockshire, but as you know things in this hobby arent cheap  :(

For us who are still at school or are students battling through endless piles of A Level and GCSE coursework we dont have that sort of money at our disposal and when we see things that are £350 we think why is that so expensive?, just for a few pieces of metal all put together with a chassis etc, but then youve got to remember the time thats gone into the planning and making of the thing in the first place. I know that when I see items for large amounts like that it puts me off because i know i havent got that sort of money and its got to wait until I do. (which will be after i've left upper sixth and working full time)

Hancockshire i can see what you mean by saying if they are cheaper then more would get sold, making more profits for the company etc, but then theres a reason why its £350, the materials might have only cost £100 but its the time spent constructing the peices to make the overall product, and planning and the cost of the prototypes that will knock the labour up which could make it up to £300, then the guy will want to make some sort of profit on each one to make it worth his while doing a run of them in the first place, for all we know 'Punch' could have taken him the last 6 months to a year or more to plan and build prototpyes etc to get to this stage, this may have been with his own money being used to fund this, and as TonyW says this makes the difference as to whether it brings in a cashflow that helps to put food on the table or even keeps the company going.

Another point is people are normally willing to spend that amount on a loco thats going to be reliable, lasts forever and fills in for what other loco's cant, as they Sir hadyn said earlier a diesel that can haul 3 dead steamers and its rake is very impressive, and would be a talking point anywhere, and something that would be looked upon by others. It would only take one eprson to say something and then word soon starts to spread.

I can see this argument from both sides, however looking at the cost it seems to sit in with what the other companies offer and what the prices they charge so i wasnt shocked to see its price tag i had £300 in mind when i first saw it, from what ive heard they are very reliable loco's and looks like a very nice loco to me and if i had the money i would probably look into getting one, anyway i wish roger the best and hope he sells enough to make it worth his efforts  :D

Tom

[TonyW]

Well said and written Tom!

Running a model railway business (i.e. earning a living) is an expensive business. Off the top of my head, here are a few of the overhead expenses that have to be paid:

- Insurance. Running a business invalidates a normal household policy.
- Workshop heating.
- Electricity for lighting, power tools, etc.
- Propane gas for blowlamp, gas torch, etc.
- Advertising.
- Hand and power tools, large and small. It is amazing how little you get for so much money these days, and they wear out quicker when being used every day.
- Basic metal materials, such as brass sheet, copper tube, steel, etc. I purchased some brass sheets and angle last week for stock, cost £100. One stick of silver solder is now £5.
- Sandpaper for paintwork preparation.
- Primer and paint, now costing £12 for 1/4 litre, plus hardeners, lacquer, paint filters, etc.
- Telephone and internet, both needed for customer communication.

These are all ongoing, exclude the initial business setup costs, and most have to be paid regardless of the number of models produced.

[Sir haydn]

Too right!!!

then theres the time it takes to set up to do the job and the time it takes to do it. the cost of products to clean up after yourself then the time it takes to tidy away!