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Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:38 pm
by georgesheppard
A few months ago I purchased the Funkey Diesel “VALE OF FFESTINIOG” kit from Yatton Model Engineering. I've only recently started to build the kit and can't say I'm overly impressed so far. Maybe I've just been spoilt by Jerry Irwin's kits.
First off, here are some photos of the kit contents. Various laser cut plywood pieces, glazing, numerous 3d printed parts and some name plates are also included.
![IMG_1057.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14033&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:40 pm
by georgesheppard
These photos demonstrate the poor quality of laser cutting & 3D printing. Given the cost of the kit I should really have returned some of these pieces but I guess I can't resist a challenge..
![IMG_1112.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14036&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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![IMG_1092.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14035&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:53 pm
by TonyW
What did Yatton Model Engineering say when you told them of these problems?
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:55 pm
by georgesheppard
First step was to build the bogies. Here they are with some rather roughly applied filler waiting to be sanded before a coat of primer. There are a few more 3D printed parts to fit but they need cleaning up before being attached.
![IMG_1115.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14037&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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The kit includes two gear boxes and motors to power one of the bogies. I'm told this will be sufficient for all but the most extreme of loads. I only have a handful of carriages and no permanent track thus far so I'm sure it will be suitable for my requirements!
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 8:05 pm
by georgesheppard
Building the chassis was a total nightmare. I'm not sure if it arrived warped or it warped in the box before I started the kit but the main chassis plate had to be straightened. Warm water on the concave part then overnight under the weight of several chopping boards seemed to sort the twist. Some of the strengthener pieces look like they go in either way round but are actually a millilitre or two different in length on certain lugs which was frustrating! Several test fits later and I have a mostly straight frame! The body is built in-place on the chassis but has lugs so it can removed to access the inside of the locomotive.
Here are some photos of the frame and body so far, with some more roughly applied filler for good measure!
![IMG_1119.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14038&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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![IMG_1120.jpeg](./download/file.php?id=14039&sid=dbfc84b8f5b9de1ffd34561414cd2698)
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Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:33 pm
by Peter Butler
That really does look a disaster, and one I would have definitely returned immediately! Having said that, I would not be buying from them in the first place, after friends have discussed their own problems with the same supplier.
Manufacturers like Jerry Irwin, The Lineside Hut and Sixteen Mills all get a big recommendation from me for their quality, pricing and customer service. I will continue to support them.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:40 pm
by georgesheppard
Peter Butler wrote: ↑Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:33 pm
That really does look a disaster, and one I would have definitely returned immediately! Having said that, I would not be buying from them in the first place, after friends have discussed their own problems with the same supplier.
Manufacturers like Jerry Irwin, The Lineside Hut and Sixteen Mills all get a big recommendation from me for their quality, pricing and customer service. I will continue to support them.
You live and learn I guess! I quite fancied building this locomotive from a kit and this was the only place I found one. I was tempted by their darjeeling carriages for some future projects but I'll source those elsewhere when the time comes.
All being said, I think I can produce a reasonable locomotive out of what I have, paint covers a multitude of sins!
![:D](./images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif)
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2021 9:58 pm
by Peter Butler
The strength of the Forum is that most members can offer first hand experience .... free of charge with no bias!. Just ask for advice any time.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 8:11 am
by ge_rik
Those photos certainly suggest quality control isn't all it should be at Yatton. I've never purchased one of their kits but I'd certainly think twice now.
Looking forward to the silk purse you produce out of it, George.
Rik
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 10:54 am
by Tingewickmax
Maybe I am going blind but from the images I am looking at I cannot see anything seriously amiss or nothing I have not encountered with other, mentioned, makers' products. Did you speak the Perter Yatton before posting on here to trash his products and start the usual feeding frenzy with those who it appears have not even any experience of building one of his products.
I could quite easily send out similar barbed comments regarding most other artisan suppliers' products but have come to realize that the inherent limitations in the essential specialized technologies relied on in their production, from design to finished product, tend to be culprit. That and each maker has their own idiosyncrasies when designing a kit so the builder is going through their own learning curve when they first build a specific make's offerings.
So, a laser cut has not burned through fully on a fret, not uncommon from any supplier that uses that production method - use a good old 10 a Swan Morton blade to fix. So a bogie or a chassis is difficult to align - do a dry fit and correct as necessary. Warped wood - check as soon as your receive a kit all its parts and how you store a supplied product long term, well away from heat sources, windows and damp areas like sheds. And yes, some makers can get a bit sloppy at times but there may be a more serious personal issue behind this that needs taking care of. It does not need airing here without some initial investigation. I have fallen into that trap myself.
I will agree sometimes it's down to a supplier specifying less than ideal materials and manufacturing processes for a product. For example - 3D printing process I have come to realize is sometimes misapplied or the wrong output method chosen due to price/performance issues with a chosen printer and material.
I over the years I have built kit products from - Swift Sixteen, Perfect World, Peter Yatton, Lineside Hut, GRS, IP Engineering, Hartford, Rio Grande UK, Bowaters, Resurgam, Modeltown, Pendle, T&M and PDF. I have also been a producer of kits for some years in anther hobby arena in the past. As I said previously I could take issue with any of those manufacturers at times over some point or other but I don't do so publicly as I have referred to each one personally first, where needed, and have found there is a good reason and they are all capable of realizing their mistakes if made aware of them and remedying them swiftly or making me aware that I might need to do a bit in the RTFM or upskilling department.
I have one of Peter's Vale of Ffestiniog kits on my list to buy. You have not changed my mind as I know Peter will fix any issues and is very easy to talk to. And this kit has been around for a while. Max
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:09 am
by TonyW
I absolutely agree with everything Tingewickmax wrote. Mistakes and errors happen, and the measure of the supplier concerned is not that it happened but how they deal with it. I asked above if you had contacted Yatton to at least give them a chance to correct the problems before being rubbished publicly on this forum. From what has been written here I cannot see that that has happened, which is most unfair in my opinion.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:26 am
by Peter Butler
I'll do no more 'mud-slinging' on this particular subject but remind others of the very clear differences in material quality, design and production, and pricing (value for money!) between manufacturers, and that I feel capable to offer advice on my experiences and personal preferences.
When building a collection of Ffestiniog 'Bug Boxes' I deliberately compared similar kits from a number of suppliers and wrote about their good and bad points equally. I think many members found this a useful exercise and one which could improve manufacturing in the future.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 11:56 am
by georgesheppard
It was not my intention to trash anyone, this is a build thread and I'm simply commenting on the quality of the kit as delivered. I have only shown a few examples but all of the 3D printed parts are of poor quality. Many of the laser cut pieces suffered the same defects. Given these are made to order, I was very disappointed and have received much higher quality cut pieces on other kits which in my opinion were better value for money.
I take your points about contacting Yatton Models, which I will do in regards to the 3D printed parts, but we're not talking about one or two bad pieces here. At £450 and the first time I've bought from Yatton Models, I can only comment on my first impressions. It was my mistake not to contact him in the first instance, which I'll hold my hands up to.
All that being said, I'm hoping to make some more progress on this kit this bank holiday weekend!
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sat May 01, 2021 12:57 pm
by -steves-
As for as I see things, forums are for people to share personal experiences and knowledge, exactly as Peter B said. It's the whole purpose of the forum being here, for like minded people to discuss their misfortunes, problems, eureka moments and of course their glory builds.
Things are never meant to "trash" anyone or "do any mud slinging", these would be removed by one of the admin team without hesitation. Nothing like this has happened in this thread, purely disappointment and photo's of parts received, people are allowed their own opinions of course (again the point of the forum) but it is only when things get out of control and things start getting personal that it is wrong, no matter which side of the fence you may be on.
So, with that in mind, let's see another great build thread, with warts an all. If you have an issue with something that you strongly disagree with either PM someone or be the bigger man, read it and just move on and ignore it
![:thumbup: :thumbup:](./images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 9:13 am
by Jimmyb
-steves- wrote: ↑Sat May 01, 2021 12:57 pm
So, with that in mind, let's see another great build thread, with warts an all. If you have an issue with something that you strongly disagree with either PM someone or be the bigger man, read it and just move on and ignore it
Steve, yes it will be nice to see how the "hiccups" are over come, and as you say another great build thread.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Sun May 02, 2021 6:28 pm
by ge_rik
Jimmyb wrote: ↑Sun May 02, 2021 9:13 am
Steve, yes it will be nice to see how the "hiccups" are over come, and as you say another great build thread.
I agree. Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out. No doubt it'll be a fine build.
Rik
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:56 am
by JMORG
Morning all,
Kit is looking good so far!
Just to add my 2c into the quality issues you described - I've built wooden kits from quite a few suppliers now and from what you describe it's fairly typical of uncommon occurrences. The warping issue can happen at any point, even during a build infact! The laser cutting process, that occasionally happens on all the kits from all suppliers - it's worth remembering that increasing the power can lead to overburning, ruining the kits detail and possibly causing a fire! It's easy to cut-up using a glass "board".
For your 3D printed parts, they look fairly typical of an FDM (Fused Deposition Modelling) part. Use filler primer and they'll be pretty good. I'm fairly certain that all of those parts will be black anyways on the Funkey, unless you're going with the "Blue Brick" paint job!
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:30 am
by ge_rik
I must admit, I don't have a wide range of experience with laser cut kits. I hadn't realised that the problems of partial burn-through were typical of most kits. I must have just been really lucky with the laser cut kits I've bought and assembled so far.
Anyhow, it sounds as if those issues are easily resolved and so this will no doubt turn into a great looking model. Looking forward to seeing the final outcome.
Rik
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 11:48 am
by Peter Butler
Some interesting points raised by JMORG which make me want to ask more questions....
Firstly, as in all product manufacturing, different materials are often used, but with the certain knowledge that laser damage and material distortion can take place (and is apparently acceptable?), I think it only fair that potential customers are made aware. I have mentioned some manufacturers by name in this thread who's products are made of thinner ply or MDF, none of which I have had any such issues with. I have also previously mentioned (elsewhere) of the distortion of thicker plywood on a kit purchased from I.P. Engineering, which, to Ivan's credit, he immediately replaced with another kit.... Good customer service in action there!
So, why is it that some manufacturers continue to use problematic materials?
The 3D printed parts also raise concern about correct use of materials and printing method used. I have no personal experience of the subject but there are many members on the Forum who amaze us with their printed products, all of which show a greater level of skill than the ones shown above. So... if they can do it, why can't professional manufacturers offer the same quality? It must be in their interests to provide a product commensurate to the cost of kits rather than disappoint customers and bring reputations into question.
I like a challenge, but expect value for money. On completion of any item I need to feel pleased enough to show it to people without apology for its failings.
Re: Yatton Models - Vale of Ffestiniog
Posted: Mon May 03, 2021 1:10 pm
by JMORG
You raise some good points Peter regarding the wood. In terms of distortion I guess it's mainly down to
• How the plywood is produced;
• How it's treated;
• How it is stored prior to the supplier;
• How the material is stored at the supplier;
• How the sprue is cut;
• How it is stored at the purchasers.
I've had kits that have warped during construction, after the initial box was made in fact! This was a Jurassic WHR brake van, of which Mike replaced the woodwork. Jurassic kits are actually very fine kits and are wonderful to make. Comparing to IP; although more substantial compared to Jurassic, they can also warp if I'm not careful!
In terms of the 3D printing side of the kit, I can go quite in depth over why the quality might not be very good (it's my occupation in fact). It can come down to several reasons:
• The machine itself (quality Vs cost);
• Printing methodology - is is Fused Deposition Modelling, Selective Laser Sintering ect
• What material you use;
• What material parameters you use;
• How you store your material;
• The day of the week, the planets alignment (even at work, some builds will simply fail when the exact same build previously worked fine).
I've got an FDM machine at home, the quality of the prints is pretty indifferent and the machines quality is pretty poor to be honest, but the manufacturer simply states "it is what it is". Luckily, I only use it for small, detail parts so it's not an issue.
I also have one of PDF's Double Fairlie's being built. This kit is produced on an FDM machine (you can clearly see the lines) and requires coat after coat of filler primer and sanding to get a good finish. Speaking to Peter online, he seemed to be aware of the limitations of 3D printing and thus started to involve more laser cutting into his newer kits. Unfortunately, Peter passed away a few weeks ago (the hobby has lost a key newcomer in my opinion).
I can go on for hours on the limitations of 3D printing, I posted on the 3D print sub-forum previously that if anyone wants advice I'm happy to give!