Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
- -steves-
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Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
In this post I am trying to show the differences in RC systems and how much greater control this can give you, personally I am 16mm scale, but this works on smaller and possibly larger scales too. Sorry its so long winded but it is a complicated subject.
Electric RC explained a little (Deltang / RC Trains etc setups)
If you use a standard stick radio or trigger radio with forward and reverse all on one stick or trigger and your loco is under 18V and pulls less than 3A then this is definitely for you (most locos I have seen pull much less than 3A)
Firstly and most importantly I do not work for any RC company and am not associated with any RC supplier, though my personal preference is RC Trains, but that is Deltang equipment, the same as Yatton and a number of others that use their base components. I am not bigging up one particular company, simply trying to pass on my personal findings. (RC Trains and other suppliers will provide a ready made TX with better boxes and graphics and not just in kit form like the Deltang one which is just a black box with unmarked dials and switches)
If you upgrade a standard system to a Deltang "type" transmitter with an RX65b and use "Low OFF" this gives MUCH greater control over the speed of your loco, particularly at slower speeds, I can not stress how much this will totally change the control of any electric loco currently on a stick or trigger RC system or for that matter the same setup but set to "Centre Off". Also note these systems also come with "Selecta" enabled which allows for running of 12 concurrent loco's from one TX! (you can of course just use one TX to save carrying a number of TX's about with you and run them independently) They can also provide other channels for built in light direction control, sound buttons and inertia control (auto control over how fast or slow the train is able to pull away or stop) but I am not here to mention all their built in features as it would take way too long as their are many many features, please just go and look. But the important feature is explain I hope, below.
Long winded explanation below and uses approx numbers based on my own personal findings of my own RC systems, nothing technical, just approximate!
(Low OFF, this means that speed and control is combined over two channels removes the centre off approach of most RC systems. I will attempt to explain it for those that might not know. A standard RC system [not all] uses just one channel for a electric loco to give forward and reverse with the off (stop) point in the middle, usually sprung loaded on stick type systems. This means that half your movement is for forward and half is for reverse so you are already down to 50% movement each way. You actually also lose another 15% (approx) off the very top and very bottom at each end due to ESC's not being all that linear in effect of a loco at top speed as you dont need most of that anyway and you also lose around 10% (approx) around the middle each way before the loco actually starts to move. This means it is effectively giving you around 25% of real usable movement each way on the stick. The Deltang / RC Trains etc type I mention above uses one channel for speed and one channel for direction, just like a steam engine with a regulator and a forward reverse lever. So, you move one switch or dial one way for forward motion, then the other channel goes on a large rotary dial from 0 - 100 with large movement giving much finer control, of course there is no middle off point so you get move like an effective 70% control from your 100% movement each direction, instead of the approx 25% effective movement on a standard system. The difference is immense when controlling a loco, it really is!)
Electric RC explained a little (Deltang / RC Trains etc setups)
If you use a standard stick radio or trigger radio with forward and reverse all on one stick or trigger and your loco is under 18V and pulls less than 3A then this is definitely for you (most locos I have seen pull much less than 3A)
Firstly and most importantly I do not work for any RC company and am not associated with any RC supplier, though my personal preference is RC Trains, but that is Deltang equipment, the same as Yatton and a number of others that use their base components. I am not bigging up one particular company, simply trying to pass on my personal findings. (RC Trains and other suppliers will provide a ready made TX with better boxes and graphics and not just in kit form like the Deltang one which is just a black box with unmarked dials and switches)
If you upgrade a standard system to a Deltang "type" transmitter with an RX65b and use "Low OFF" this gives MUCH greater control over the speed of your loco, particularly at slower speeds, I can not stress how much this will totally change the control of any electric loco currently on a stick or trigger RC system or for that matter the same setup but set to "Centre Off". Also note these systems also come with "Selecta" enabled which allows for running of 12 concurrent loco's from one TX! (you can of course just use one TX to save carrying a number of TX's about with you and run them independently) They can also provide other channels for built in light direction control, sound buttons and inertia control (auto control over how fast or slow the train is able to pull away or stop) but I am not here to mention all their built in features as it would take way too long as their are many many features, please just go and look. But the important feature is explain I hope, below.
Long winded explanation below and uses approx numbers based on my own personal findings of my own RC systems, nothing technical, just approximate!
(Low OFF, this means that speed and control is combined over two channels removes the centre off approach of most RC systems. I will attempt to explain it for those that might not know. A standard RC system [not all] uses just one channel for a electric loco to give forward and reverse with the off (stop) point in the middle, usually sprung loaded on stick type systems. This means that half your movement is for forward and half is for reverse so you are already down to 50% movement each way. You actually also lose another 15% (approx) off the very top and very bottom at each end due to ESC's not being all that linear in effect of a loco at top speed as you dont need most of that anyway and you also lose around 10% (approx) around the middle each way before the loco actually starts to move. This means it is effectively giving you around 25% of real usable movement each way on the stick. The Deltang / RC Trains etc type I mention above uses one channel for speed and one channel for direction, just like a steam engine with a regulator and a forward reverse lever. So, you move one switch or dial one way for forward motion, then the other channel goes on a large rotary dial from 0 - 100 with large movement giving much finer control, of course there is no middle off point so you get move like an effective 70% control from your 100% movement each direction, instead of the approx 25% effective movement on a standard system. The difference is immense when controlling a loco, it really is!)
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- tom_tom_go
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Thanks for posting Steve.
I would be interested to hear what Rik thinks of your findings regarding greater control using 'low off' rather than 'centre off'.
Rik?
I would be interested to hear what Rik thinks of your findings regarding greater control using 'low off' rather than 'centre off'.
Rik?
Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
From my experience, most people who use Deltang / RC Trains equipment for their battery locos use their receivers in centre off mode. I tend to do that myself - but only out of habit, not through conscious or considered choice. I know that folk who use the TXs to control both live steam and battery locos tend to prefer having their battery loco receivers in low off mode, so as not to be confused when switching over from steam to battery.tom_tom_go wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2017 6:19 pm Thanks for posting Steve.
I would be interested to hear what Rik thinks of your findings regarding greater control using 'low off' rather than 'centre off'.
Rik?
Regarding control, I'd agree with Steves that you will get more precision when using a Tx to control an Rx in 'low off' mode. But I've never had a problem with controlling locos using centre off - and as you're probably aware, I do a lot of slow running and shunting (see my recent video on track vs battery power).
So, I think a lot of it is down to personal preference.
You've got me thinking, though. I might try changing the locos I use in my next running session to low off, just to see whether I find it more satisfying.....
Rik
PS - Just remembered. All my locos are now equipped with sound cards and some of them are programmed to use the direction switch for operating additional sound effects (or for lighting). I do have a handful of locos with older soundcards which don't need the extra triggers and so I'll have to use those for my next operating session.
- tom_tom_go
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Like you Rik I use the direction switch for soundcard on/off so would not be able to change unless the inerita control knob can be used?
I would be interested to hear if you notice a difference though, even a video comparison?
I would be interested to hear if you notice a difference though, even a video comparison?
- -steves-
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Can you not use the bind button and fit another button for sound control, that's what I did. The bind button is the horn and another button I use for sound on / sound off as a latched channel? Rik and myself went through many a conversation to get this method working, but it works well
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- tom_tom_go
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
I would like to add an additional pot to the TX24 as this would be handy to control another servo on a live steamer so if you can share how you went about adding a button that would be great.
Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Hi Tomtom_tom_go wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:52 am I would like to add an additional pot to the TX24 as this would be handy to control another servo on a live steamer so if you can share how you went about adding a button that would be great.
You can reprogram the inertia pot to control ch4 - that's easier than adding another pot.
Rik
- tom_tom_go
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Thanks Rik, but I am already doing that and need another pot for another servo. I want to be able to R/C:
Regulator - Throttle knob
Reverser - Directional knob
Damper/Whistle - Inertia knob, I cannot use the bind button for whistle in this loco
So need another pot for the blower as this is a coal fired loco.
Regulator - Throttle knob
Reverser - Directional knob
Damper/Whistle - Inertia knob, I cannot use the bind button for whistle in this loco
So need another pot for the blower as this is a coal fired loco.
Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
Hmmm.... You should be able to use Ch7 for another pot. Not tried it. You might find you get weird things happening if you use a different Tx with the loco as Ch7 gives random outputs from standard Deltang Txs, but if you only use the modified Tx with the loco it should be OK.tom_tom_go wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:54 pm Thanks Rik, but I am already doing that and need another pot for another servo. I want to be able to R/C:
Regulator - Throttle knob
Reverser - Directional knob
Damper/Whistle - Inertia knob, I cannot use the bind button for whistle in this loco
So need another pot for the blower as this is a coal fired loco.
Rik
- -steves-
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
I will have a look at the wiring I used, but it was nothing massively complected in the end, just a matter of knowing what will work and what won't. It uses channel 7 for 2 extra switches, but if you get it wrong, as Rik said, very strange things can happen , as we found outtom_tom_go wrote: ↑Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:52 am I would like to add an additional pot to the TX24 as this would be handy to control another servo on a live steamer so if you can share how you went about adding a button that would be great.
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
- tom_tom_go
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
If you can post how you went about it please Steve that would be great, thanks.
- -steves-
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Re: Controlling and slow running RC electric loco's
I will have a look and post it up, I know it involved putting a resistor inline with the switch, or 2 resistors if using a 3 position switch. Please forgive me if I forget to do so, but once home I have a million and one things always on the gotom_tom_go wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2017 9:19 am If you can post how you went about it please Steve that would be great, thanks.
The buck stops here .......
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
Ditton Meadow Light Railway (DMLR)
Member of Peterborough and District Association
http://peterborough.16mm.org.uk/
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