Garden Railway Forum

Busted Bricks:117388 wrote:Really? I have never seen a commercial offering for the Cracker loco. Who made/sold them?

They are / were made in the US and called the Cricket, the current version production costs over twice your price hence why you don't see many about:

http://www.cricketlivesteammotor.com/

Ah, the Cricket. I'm familiar with that. It is quite a bit larger than a Cracker. I agree the price seems on the high side. At the current exchange rate it is £666. Then you have to add shipping, duty, VAT and fees.

If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

cncmodeller:117393 wrote:If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

or a 2'gauge Sentinel

Just my 2p worth, but if I were going to produce a live steam loco, it would not be an oscillator, whereas something with valve gear would appeal to me personally. Also I don't like anything without reversing gear either so again if it were me, I would go down the reversing gear route. We all have our own preferences of course, but if you look what does well (Accucraft and Roundhouse) then thats what you are up against but doing it cheaper, if at all possible, if not possible, then I would not waste my time and money trying. As I say, all my personal opinion and not relevant as it appears you have already had some outlay in this.

I do however wish you all the best in your venture, honestly, the best of luck to you

So far I haven't invested more money than I make in a couple of days so it's not like the house and car is on the line.

Good luck with your project if you decide to go ahead with it. I personally think that the success of an engine is often linked to its price and adaptability.

I know we are going back many years but the original Mamod engine was a huge seller and I think this was down to the price.

Why are there so many Millies and Caradoc/Ragleth etc about? Price one would assume.

cncmodeller:117393 wrote:If you're going for simple, why not do an Aveling & Porter single cylinder loco? At least it would be real, they did do some narrow gauge ones.
Its the one thing that always put me off the Regner locos.

The joke's on you. There WAS a "real" Cricket. Close enough, anyway:

Busted Bricks:117324 wrote:Does anyone have any knowledge of app. how many steam locos are sold in the UK per year?

Interesting question. I wonder how Roundhouse are able to manage with quite a number of employees. The yearly production can't be that large. Salaries, which usually is the highest cost, are probably much lower than in Norway, though.

But, for possible Cracker sales I guess you should look to Mamod and not Roundhouse and Accucraft.

I hope you don't mind me poking my nose in but the biggest problem any potential loco manufacturer has  is 'China'. Few companies in this country can compete with them due to the low wages they pay their workers. It's worth thinking about before you start full production but good luck with your project anyway.

There isn't much of a threat from China at present as they don't produce and sell any locos directly. I know that Accucraft locos are built in China but price wise they don't seem to be far off Roundhouse prices.

With regards to parts, I have found a supplier in Denmark that can make CNC turned parts at prices very close to China prices since I save on shipping and duty. Also laser cutting is very affordable in Europe these days. Material prices are pretty much the same the world over.

I don't have any cost for rent, there are no rates to pay and I don't employ any staff so my own overhead is quite low. As long as I can meet the local minimum wage for my own time I'm happy (app. £13 per hour)

Michael

It's hard to evaluate the model steam loco market, but if it's of any use, here are the kinds of locos that would appeal to me and perhaps others:

Route 1
A small loco that can run on widely available track like H0 with 16,5 mm. H0 has the widest market share, world-wide.
I doubt there is much competition in that area from other live steam manufacturers. The advantage would be a large existing pool of potential buyers who run H0 trains.
Also, many people refrain from getting locos that run on 32 or 45 mm because they feel they are too big for their small apartments etc., but they might be interested in a live steam loco that can run on their indoor H0 circuit.

Route 2
A nice loco regaugeable between 32 and 45 mm, with full control (speed and reversing). That usually implies 2 cylinders. I would think this loco should be offered ready to run and in kit form. If you only offer a kit, it would discourage many who aren't sure of their abilities to build it.
I would make it internally fired, with either gas or alcohol, whatever would be cheaper to manufacture.
As you know, for these gauges there is an established competition.
I wouldn't go for a single cylinder locomotive, since it's not so easy to control, which might put off some.

Considerations regarding both routes mentioned above:
Most important, make the loco detailed enough to look like a plausible real life loco, but it doesn't have to be a copy of any prototype. Which means it should have nicely designed parts: avoid the look of large lumps of crudely machined metal (as seen on some toy steam cylinders).
Try to make it upgradeable with parts form other suppliers. Which means choosing the most widely used threads for boiler bushes, for instance.
Look into having parts manufactured overseas if that works out cheaper.
And don't forget advertising, even if you choose free means such as youtube videos, forum postings, facebook page, etc.

Hi, i think for the UK 2 foot gauge prototype market (which i expect is the largest in 16mm) a craker loco could be quite appealing for small industrial lines although i do doubt whether you will be able to sell 50 of them a year. If i were starting out making a live steam loco then i would personally look at producing a small slip eccentric loco perhaps like a Wild rose of Dave Watkins drawings. if you aimed to make 25 RTR then 25 in kit form (which perhaps dont require to much engineering skills but are also more difficult than roundhouses) then i reckon you would be on to a winner. Both forms either a RTR small slip eccentric loco or for a reasonable price of (around £400-£500) or a kit of one for about (£340-£400) are two areas of the 16mm market not currently catered very well for. This is especially true when you look at roundhouse and there latest offerings both of which are high end and not accessible to many modelers and especially beginners into the hobby. As for Accucraft despite there lower prices many people even begginers into the hobby arent comfortable with getting a loco from China.
anyway whatever way you go Good luck!
cheers
Joe

Hi well I think the above post is potentially flawed in a few palces, in my opinion of course, as we are all entitled to those as per above.

I think 45mm is more popular as many people come from Gauge 1 so already have the track so dont change it. Others model 2'6 and 3' which is a closer representation then 32mm.

Slip eccentric might be cheaper, but it is just that, cheaper and not much fun for anyone that wants or needs RC on their line due to steeper inclines as you have to push it for reverse, kinda defeats the object of RC.

As for Accucraft, myself and many others who I know and speak to on here don't mind buying Accucraft as a first loco, in fact I did just that. I think they are excellent feats of engineering and highly recommend them along with Roundhouse.

So as you can see, there are always 2 sides to every coin!

There is a whole world outside of UK and in most other countries 45mm is the track of choice.

A geared oscillator is quite docile and will run without R/C on less than perfect tracks.

Further down the line (no pun intended) I could be interested in manufacturing a loco like Wild Rose but that would require the permission of the designer. In case of the Cracker I have that permission. However I am moving away from the original design by enlarging it.

I'm currently working on drawing generic parts such as unions, valves etc. with the aim to have them made on CNC machines.

Looking forward to seeing one of these being built up

Busted Bricks:117433 wrote:I don't have any cost for rent, there are no rates to pay and I don't employ any staff so my own overhead is quite low. As long as I can meet the local minimum wage for my own time I'm happy (app. £13 per hour)

I think the main thing you should think through is whether you want to do it as a hobby for fun or if your motivation is to make money. If you consider dealing with customers and subcontractors, doing accounting and all the other aspects of running your own business as hobby and fun, why not just go ahead and do it. You will certainly learn a lot. Good luck!

I have been running my own businesses on and off for many years, sometimes full-time, sometimes part-time. I really enjoy being self-employed. Admittedly I'm not fond of doing the book keeping but at least I know how to do it. I'm used to dealing with vendors and customers on a daily basis in my day job.

As a beginner in garden railways,perhaps my viewpoint will be of interest.

I would love live steam,but the price is off putting.

I consider myself to be a reasonable DIY person,I avoid taking any of my cars to a garage as far as possible and I have almost finished re-building our retirement home....there's really just the garden left....

So a cheap to buy kit steam loco,with the tricky bits pre-assembled,would be of great interest to guys like me.
Email back-up from the supplier would be a big advantage for any problem solving parts of construction.

Gauge?
I cannot decide between 32 and 45mm,so a kit that could be built for both will make sure of sales to both followers.

I wish the OP well in his venture and look forward to seeing his results.

I might consider a cracker if it were in the guise of a steam tram (Wisbech and Upwell style) but the bare engine designs I've seen look too toy like for my tastes.