Thomas Telford Locomotive - Take Two

[dougrail]

Hi folks,

As you know I was able to check out the Thomas Telford prototype when I visited the Mamod Factory and HQ a few weeks ago. However then, the photos were phone camera, hastily grabbed efforts which left a lot of questions open.

Today I was able to go to the Warley Model Rail Exhibition at the Birmingham NEC > Full report here : http://modelsteam.myfreeforum.org/ftopi ... 0-asc-.php

Mamod were there in attendance too with a full information and sales stand. They were selling Mk1s for £150 ! and selling Mk2's. Jubilee saddle tanks and a couple of Williams as well as a veritable, growing range of rolling stock and track.



As always they were very friendly and receptive. I believe the owner/foreman is named David; I may be wrong but it was the same chap who kindly showed me around the factory and who was eager to talk again. He allowed me to take another look at the now finished Thomas Telford locomotive prototype as I now had my good camera with me...

The Finished Prototype
Air tested, but not steamed - yet.



Not sure of the origin of the lamp, but easily repaintable should folk want.

Side views...







The cab proved to be a surrpise - bigger than we originally thought.





It transpires that since my last visit, they have been working on the regulator in order to get a finer degree of control from it.




There were a couple of other surprises too. The first is the cylinders. It turns out the improved cylinders are that they are 11mm bore, as opposed to the older Jubilee and William locos.

Close ups






The next is that the Thomas Telford is a lot bigger than the Mk1 and Mk2s - we has assumed that the bodies were roughly the same size. Not the case so it seems.

I was able to inspect and handle a Mk2 loco which was also on the stand...



You can see a rough side compare here...



And the side by sides...




Closer...



And a final view...




Thoughts

Considering input on this loco, yes the lubricator is sticking out of the side. The gold label is easily removable however. The sizing came as a great surprise however - a real attempt to get into the garden railway scene and made more likely by the fact this is a size upgrade compared to the Mk1 and 2.

I was able to confirm the cylinder upgrade - 11mm bore which should be for better power compared to older slide valve locos.

The price I have conformation of is £430 - not bad at all for a silver soldered, gas burner, cab regulators, slip eccentric loco that should be a good introductory locomotive for the 16mm Garden. Rail scene as well as for toy steamers and collectors alike.

[Spule 4]

Well done Doug , and as you said, it is HUGE, better fit for the Garden Railway folks for sure.  

And FYI, I think the green loco is a MkI not II, no brass trim or second boiler bung.

The only drawback for those outside of Europe: a Roundhouse Millie is only GBP40 more as we do not have VAT, and Mamod apparently do not charge/deduct it either.

With the GBP 150 blowout of the MkIs (and I see that price was for the show only  )  I wonder if its days are numbered?

Thanks again!

[Chris Cairns]

Doug,

You have been incredibly lucky visiting Mamod twice in such a short time. Certainly living closer to Mamod & the NEC than I do in Glasgow has been a big advantage.

Thank you for posting this comprehensive report. I am closer to writing to Mamod to see if they would make up a kit Thomas Telford (i.e. no riveted bits) and whether it would be possible not to cut the cab roof or have holes in the RHS body work for the lubricator (should be possible to mount the lubricator fore and aft in the cab and use a syringe to fill/empty the lubricator).

So looks like they are phasing out the Mark I locos. At £150 they are a bargain and with some work you can fit a lubricator and proper exhaust steam pipe, effectively making a cheaper Mark II style loco.

David Terry is the Managing Director of Mamod Limited. I've not met him in person, but dealt with him by phone & e-mail. Peter Johnston is Mamod's designer and you briefly see a quick glance of him in the Diamond Jubilee YouTube video.

The next is that the Thomas Telford is a lot bigger than the Mk1 and Mk2s - we had assumed that the bodies were roughly the same size.

The cab proved to be a surpise - bigger than we originally thought.

If you read my comments here - http://gardenrails.myfreeforum.org/about6425.html I had said from your original photos that the Thomas Telford was probably the same width as the William II (which is wider than the Mark I/II locos), the cab was extended and the Thomas Telford was either the same length as the William II or as I suspected longer.

So your new photos have confirmed my thoughts. The Busy Bodies Mamod driver figure might actually fit into this cab.

Garrett (Spule 4) is also correct - you have compared the Thomas Telford against the Mark I loco, but it is the same size as the Mark II loco.

Some more observations -

1. Cab Roof cut-out. Presumably to make access to the regulator easier but not sure how that would go down with the Garden Railway community - not a prototypical narrow gauge thing, or was it?

2. Gas Pipe - The gas pipe is up against the regulator shaft so the gas tank is not vertical. The Garden Railway community would prefer the gas valve to be accessed from the rear of the cab which needs a longer gas pipe.

3. Cylinder Mounting Nuts. I cannot see any washers under these nuts like there is on the William/William II/Brunel locos - needs longer studs fitted there so that washers can be used.

4. Slots in the Cab back. Doug had mentioned these in his previous posting. What is their purpose?

Other general observations - They have finally finished all those purple Royal Family locomotive boxes, although still plenty of the old red rolling stock boxes to go. And the displayed Mark II loco (on top of the boxes) does not have the 2nd boiler insert.

Chris Cairns.

[Lner fan Sam]

that loco seriously has some bling!!

but on a more serious note it looks like now mamod are striving make their locos better.

[dougrail]

It's bling and it's lovely - and yes they are aiming to improve with each step

[DolwyddelanLightRail]

I'll admit it does look a heck of a lot better proportioned. The only thing that "argues" with my eye is the running plate/smokebox/cylinder area of the loco...there just isn't something quite right there for some reason. Can't put my finger on it though. (Either that or I need to go to sleep sometime this week)

I'm not entirely sure of having the large brass sticker on the sidetank (that displays an incorrect date for mamod, I thought it was 1939, not 37? or was there a misprint on the Mamod SL6 locos which clearly state 1939-1989 which I have looking directly at me) Surely the old "Mamod Steam Railway Co" would have been more suitable?

(As a footnote, the above post isn't meant to come across as me having a go, just sleep deprivation kicking in...)

[Superbiker_uk]

The only thing that "argues" with my eye is the running plate/smokebox/cylinder area of the loco...there just isn't something quite right there for some reason. Can't put my finger on it though

I agree - it needs something to fill the gap between the smokebox apron and the boiler i.e. it needs something that looks like a smoke box on the front! If I bought one I would make one to fit (as I had to with my Salem loco).

[Chris Cairns]

The only thing that "argues" with my eye is the running plate/smoke box/cylinder area of the loco...there just isn't something quite right there for some reason. Can't put my finger on it though.

That is all down to design changes made by Mamod over the years. Originally the Golden Jubilee & William locos had a smoke box saddle and a full apron/footplate. When the William II arrived the apron/footplate was cut back to 'improve' the cylinders & burner. And then the Mark I & II locos have no smoke box saddle.

Easy enough to fit a smoke box casting from Steam4Fun or GRS, and a saddle and full apron/footplate extension would allow fitting sand boxes, tool boxes, re-railing jacks, cylinder covers, etc.

I would make one to fit (as I had to with my Salem loco).

But was that not to improve on the one originally fitted as opposed to here where there is not one fitted?

that displays an incorrect date for Mamod,

The "Bible" is the reference you need to refer to.

In 1936 the late Geoffrey Malins' wife, Clarrie, coined the new trade name for the forthcoming range of steam toys. Mamod (pronounced 'Maymod', and not 'Mammod') is simply the 'Ma' from Malins and the 'Mod' from models. The engines that were being produced, initially for 'Hobbies', were also badged Mamod from 1937. On 3 January 1939 Malins (Engineers) Limited was formed. So you have 3 dates to play with, and they have all been used.

1989 - To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of Mamod Models the date of 1939 was used as a convenient advertising tool for a forthcoming marketing campaign. So 1,100 Limited Edition SL6s were produced to mark this 'Golden Jubilee Year'. Ironically with the declining fortunes of the parent company Starwest Investments it also marked the end of the Mamod Steam Railway.

2004ish - Some of the Williams, and later some of the William IIs were produced with a Mamod Working Steam Models oval badge which used the date of 1936.

2012 - The Thomas Telford uses the date of 1937.

So all 3 dates have now been used.

As to using the old Mamod Steam Railway Company logo there is still some doubt who actually owns that. In the 'Bible' it states that David Evans of MSS (Mamod Sales & Services) acquired the Railway System, but that has been legally disputed by the current owners of Mamod who stated that in 1992 there was no Railway System included in the assets for sale from Porter Chadburn PLC.

And of course the 'Bible' was produced by MSS!!!!!!!

Chris Cairns.

[Superbiker_uk]

Superbiker_uk wrote:

I would make one to fit (as I had to with my Salem loco).

But was that not to improve on the one originally fitted as opposed to here where there is not one fitted?

That is correct - I wasn't wishing to mislead - I was just implying that as I have built such a structure on the Salem loco I would do the same for the Mamod loco. I hope I can try this and some other modifcation ideas I have in the future on such a loco.

[dougrail]

Ach, no worry James.

I think for me what makes it bare is the wide footplate at the front suddenly narrowing and leaving a gap between it and where the tanks start.

That and a smokebox saddle.

Could one be built that just 'slots' over the boiler, allowing for the funnel and also include a stand? Think Peckett or Kerr Stuart 'bell' stye smokeboxes?

[Chris Cairns]

Could one be built that just 'slots' over the boiler, allowing for the funnel and also include a stand?

Guess what? That is effectively what the competing Millie is fitted with. As long as you could remove the brass cap from the Thomas Telford chimney then a smokebox 'box' could be fitted with a suitable collar on top to fit around the bottom of the chimney.

And if you look at another competition loco for this Thomas Telford, the Roundhouse Bertie, the smoke box apron/footplate on that loco is also cut back from just behind the buffer beam.

So perhaps we are tending to be a bit over-critical of the Mamod product, myself included.

Chris Cairns.

[dougrail]

I have to confess that had I got my hands on a Bertie, I'd also be looking to fill that gap.

As for the smokebox idea, it's that or a smokebox door and saddle fitted separately. Maybe I could, if and when I get a TT, measure it up and design something?

[mikewakefielduk@btinterne]

I was speaking with David Terry at Warley and he confirmed that the Mk1 and the William locos are being discontinued.

[Chris Cairns]

The Golden Jubilee/William/William II locos were never very good runners so it is no surprise their days are now over. Pity about the Mark I as it offered the cheapest entry gas fired loco which is a good runner.

We can only hope that the problems with the burners & cylinders from the William family will have been suitably overcome with the Thomas Telford.

Chris Cairns.

[dougrail]

Well, the gas system is that of the mk1 and 2's, that a positive and the cylinders are a new design so again, one hopes so.

[Chris Cairns]

Well, the gas system is that of the mk1 and 2's, that a positive

Which is actually the same burner as the William II. The Mark I & II locos work better because the combustion chamber is semi-hexagonal in shape (vertical in William II) and there is a decent air slot on the top of the side tanks.

Have a look back at your Warley Thomas Telford photos and you will see that the top of  LHS combustion chamber is very close to the boiler on that side. That leads me to suspect that it may be a vertical combustion chamber plate just like the William II - and could mean more problems.

Mamod do not use 'O' rings on the pistons (just a small oil ring slot) so they need good lubrication. Whereas the oscillating cylinder has the advantage that the cylinder can lift off from the back plate allowing excess condensed steam to escape, the slide valve cylinder does not have that luxury. So we can only hope that the video Mamod have promised to post on YouTube of the loco firing on gas will be free running at slow speeds, just like it did whilst on air. This is something that I have struggled to achieve satisfactorily with my William, William II & Brunel locos.

Chris Cairns.

[mikewakefielduk@btinterne]

Well I guess I'm going to find out one way or another as I've ordered the TT loco no. 21 (that's going to be the first one fitted with the improved lubricator). No idea when it will be delivered, I guess it depends on when Mamod make and sell the first 20.

Fingers crossed

[dougrail]

Brave man. I will likely order mine next spring once my finances are stable and my loco affairs are settled.

[Chris Cairns]

I've ordered the TT loco no. 21 (that's going to be the first one fitted with the improved lubricator)

So it sounds like the metal work for the first 20 is being cut already.

Any details on the design of the 'Improved Lubricator'?

Chris Cairns.

[mikewakefielduk@btinterne]

To be honest I'm not totally sure. A couple of weeks ago I took my Brunel back to Mamod as I was having a couple of issues with it (eg wobbly wheel) which they promptly fixed. Whilst there I was shown the new TT by Peter who mentioned the first 20 were being fitted with the existing Mk11 lubricator. However, after that, subsequent locos were going to get an improved lubricator with twice the oil capacity and some sort of drain cock underneath (I guess a bit like the one on the Brunel?). There is still going to be the oil filler sticking out of the side of the cab but it will be slightly repositioned.

Which is why, when I placed my order at Warley, I specified I wanted loco 21. I was told "my" loco would be available possibly in February.

I'm not sure how 100% likely this change to the lubricator is as, back when the Brunel was being launched (in 2010?), I was told one of the improvements in the pipeline was going to be a change in the reduction gearing so the loco runs slower. Currently this still hasn't happened.

Incidentally, and possibly slightly off topic, how much notice do Mamod take of suggestions for possible improvements? I read elsewhere in the forum you'd had to move the position of the burner on your Brunel.

Mike Wakefield