Another Wild Rose Project

[-steves-]

As some of you may know, my first attempt to work in metal was quite successful (so it has been rumoured). Well, as I said in that post, the aim was always to keep pushing forwards and learning new things. I had intended to build a Wild Rose from scratch, however, my step father had the same idea some years back and had already made a start down this road. He has now passed the mantle over to me as I was keen to make my own working steam loco. He had already done the boiler and he had already had the side plates and connecting rods laser cut by an online company that do them off the shelf.

The rest as they say, will be down to me to do. This will definitely be a long term project as there will again be a fair bit of trial and error along the way. Not the most exciting of threads as some very skilled engineers have already done the Wild Rose to death on various threads and posts over the years, but this will my story of my first ever steam loco from "almost" scratch.

I started over the last couple of days on my new toy (a new 10 x 22 lathe with power cross feed and DRO) to produce a set of wheels, something which I had tried before on my old lathe and failed very miserably so gave up on it, the new lathe was quite a different story. The first job on the lathe was to produce the necessary parts to add a quick change tool post which took a couple of days as it was not straight forward, but it's now done although not shown in these pictures.

First up a couple of pictures of the machine tasked with doing the wheels. Sorry about the blurry pictures It looks quite small in the picture, it really isn't, weighing in at 140KG (308lbs) and took a block and tackle to get it on that bench. And yes, that is tidy for my workshop, it's very compact







Now, please remember I am not an engineer, (I am a computer techy by trade) I have not had any training and I didn't really know where to start on these, I just read a few bits here and there and muddled them together to come up with some wheels that all be it, not perfect and not well finished, they do all run true and the are all the same diameter

This one shows the starting steel bar and the finished wheels.



These two show the 4 wheels on axles, one is currently set at 45mm and the other set at 32mm, just to see if they ran well on the rails, which the did

[-steves-]

These are the parts I was given as my start to this project. As I said, boiler made by my step father and the rest was purchased as laser cut off the shelf items. I guess it will make my job easier in the long run

[Keith S]

I'm looking forward to seeing this. I have always wanted to get into making metal parts and building an engine. It will be great to see how you progress at this. The wheels look like a promising start. I would be pleased with myself if I made those.

[-steves-]

I'm looking forward to seeing this. I have always wanted to get into making metal parts and building an engine. It will be great to see how you progress at this. The wheels look like a promising start. I would be pleased with myself if I made those.

Thanks Keith

I have to confess I am looking forward to seeing how this progresses too, it could be good, it might be a complete failure, who knows at this stage. I will also admit, despite the errors in the wheels, (which I know are there but won't affect performance) I am very pleased with the end result as the first wheel I attempted on on my mini lathe was a complete disaster! The main issue with the wheels was the lack of finishing and the drill and / or tap hitting the edge of the wheel when making the hole for the grub screw.

[Keith S]

It won't be a failure. One of my favourite adages is "Once begun, Half done".

It doesn't need to be perfect. No steam engine ever was -possibly with the exception of the Montreal Locomotive Works' Royal Hudson class- but I am sure you will make a running engine in the end.

[-steves-]

It won't be a failure. One of my favourite adages is "Once begun, Half done".

It doesn't need to be perfect. No steam engine ever was -possibly with the exception of the Montreal Locomotive Works' Royal Hudson class- but I am sure you will make a running engine in the end.

That's very true, as long as it runs, then I will be a happy bunny knowing that I have made my own little bit of steam locomotive that actually works.

Starting to put together a shopping list of the parts I need to buy and the parts I have in my metal draw, unfortunately most of it so far appears to be on my shopping list, lol.

[GTB]

Starting to put together a shopping list of the parts I need to buy and the parts I have in my metal draw, unfortunately most of it so far appears to be on my shopping list, lol.

All part of the fun.............

As I remember, the bill for the metal needed for my first scratchbuilt steamer was more than the lathe cost, but you don't use all of it and it only needs topping up for subsequent models. I'm about to start this years loco project and it's looking like I don't need to order any metal for it, for once.

I vaguely registered the divots in the wheel treads, but didn't make the connection with the grub screws. They won't be visible on an outside frame loco with small wheels once they are painted.

If you don't already use them, spotting drills are useful for starting holes in sloping surfaces, as they don't skate around like jobbing drills do. I use the spotter to make a suitable starting divot, then use the jobber drill to make the hole.

Anyway, how is the new lathe going? Were you able to part the wheels off that piece of bar, or did you bandsaw the blanks? The surface finish on the wheels looks good, so it's obviously less liable to chatter than a mini-lathe.

I think a quick change toolholder was one of the most useful accessories I've added to my lathe, especially when making wheels. The other thing I've found really useful when making multiple parts is a carriage stop.

Building a steamer is a bit like the old joke about eating an elephant. You do it one piece at a time........

Regards,
Graeme

[Busted Bricks]

Mild steel is dirt cheap when you buy it in bulk. We pay less than a Pound per kg. However in small quantities the cost quickly adds up. I'm fortunate that I can scrounge all the off-cuts I want.

[-steves-]

Starting to put together a shopping list of the parts I need to buy and the parts I have in my metal draw, unfortunately most of it so far appears to be on my shopping list, lol.

All part of the fun.............

As I remember, the bill for the metal needed for my first scratchbuilt steamer was more than the lathe cost, but you don't use all of it and it only needs topping up for subsequent models. I'm about to start this years loco project and it's looking like I don't need to order any metal for it, for once.

I vaguely registered the divots in the wheel treads, but didn't make the connection with the grub screws. They won't be visible on an outside frame loco with small wheels once they are painted.

If you don't already use them, spotting drills are useful for starting holes in sloping surfaces, as they don't skate around like jobbing drills do. I use the spotter to make a suitable starting divot, then use the jobber drill to make the hole.

Anyway, how is the new lathe going? Were you able to part the wheels off that piece of bar, or did you bandsaw the blanks? The surface finish on the wheels looks good, so it's obviously less liable to chatter than a mini-lathe.

I think a quick change toolholder was one of the most useful accessories I've added to my lathe, especially when making wheels. The other thing I've found really useful when making multiple parts is a carriage stop.

Building a steamer is a bit like the old joke about eating an elephant. You do it one piece at a time........

Regards,
Graeme

Hi Graeme

I have a few bits and bobs in my draw, mostly the 1.5mm and 0.5mm brass sheet, the steel I don't have much of as I have never had a need for it to date, just the odd bit that I initially bought when I got the first lathe and thought I might be able to cut it.

The wheels will not be visible as you say, it's more knowing they are there. I use spotting drills and centre drills all the time, the problem with this one was no real way to clamp the wheel at the correct angle to drill it and tap it, so I did them both by hand (well electric drill and hand tap) and because of that, the very slightest movement and it caught the edge of the wheel treads.

The new lathe is wonderful compared to the mini lathe, capable of so much more. I used the bandsaw to cut the blanks and made a mandrel to make them all on. I could have theoretically parted off the steel, but it would have taken ages, made a lot of noise and blunted my parting tool more times than I care to count. Parting off on steels seems ok up to about 16mm, after that, a fair bit of noise and some movement in the tool post, though I am not sure where exactly that movement is coming from, most likely one of the gibs could do with a slight tweak.

The quick change tool holder has already been invaluable as it was on my mini lathe too, I actually don't know how people cope without them, so much faffing around setting up each tool every time you change it, yuk, lol I am after a carriage stop for this lathe, just not sure wher to get one from for this size of lathe, but I am sure I will get one eventually as I too found it very useful even on the mini lathe, but because of the DRO I have been managing to get away without one for now.

As you say, one piece at a time.

Steve

[-steves-]

Mild steel is dirt cheap when you buy it in bulk. We pay less than a Pound per kg. However in small quantities the cost quickly adds up. I'm fortunate that I can scrounge all the off-cuts I want.

Lucky you, I have to pay for all my metal, even if it is out of the cutoff bin and is very reasonably priced, lol

[-steves-]

I made a few more bits today, but I I am concerned how I am going to get a 2mm slot in a 4mm round bar and 5mm deep. I could use the mill and a 2mm end mill, but I am thinking I would end up going through a few dozen to get that sort of cut? My other thought was a hack saw and a significant amount of time with a file, neither option sounds like one I would like to take, any thoughts anyone?

Here are today's bits, as always, they look better in real life as they are only small parts in real life and the camera makes them look bigger than they are, therefore the errors are bigger than they really are and it casts shadows just to highlight everything that little bit more, lol No really, they are not as bad as they look on here, lol

The two round 4mm steel rods are the thing I need to put a 2mm x 5mm slot in the end of?

[GTB]

The two round 4mm steel rods are the thing I need to put a 2mm x 5mm slot in the end of?

You aren't wasting any time are you? This new loco will be in steam before I get the next one running on air, I think......

You could use a slitting saw in the mill (or the lathe), they come in 2mm width. You'll need a mandrel as well, although you could make one. Slitting saws are run at slow speed like a cold saw, if you run them at high revs like a woodsaw the teeth get hot and the saw rapidly goes blunt. You could cut the slot with a 2mm slot drill using light cuts, but it would be as slow as watching paint dry.

Rather you than me drilling holes at an angle freehand. I invested in a tilting vice when I first bought the mill. I've probably only used it three times to date and while the head of my mill can be tilted, I decided the cost of the vice was worth it, as I don't enjoy the process of tramming a vertical mill.........

Once upon a time, I could wander into the local scrap merchant, rummage around in the offcuts bins from the local light engineering firms and pay by weight. Not any more thanks to corporate takeovers, the chattering classes and of course lawyers.....

Regards,
Graeme

[-steves-]

You aren't wasting any time are you? This new loco will be in steam before I get the next one running on air, I think......

You could use a slitting saw in the mill (or the lathe), they come in 2mm width. You'll need a mandrel as well, although you could make one. Slitting saws are run at slow speed like a cold saw, if you run them at high revs like a woodsaw the teeth get hot and the saw rapidly goes blunt. You could cut the slot with a 2mm slot drill using light cuts, but it would be as slow as watching paint dry.

Rather you than me drilling holes at an angle freehand. I invested in a tilting vice when I first bought the mill. I've probably only used it three times to date and while the head of my mill can be tilted, I decided the cost of the vice was worth it, as I don't enjoy the process of tramming a vertical mill.........

Once upon a time, I could wander into the local scrap merchant, rummage around in the offcuts bins from the local light engineering firms and pay by weight. Not any more thanks to corporate takeovers, the chattering classes and of course lawyers.....

Regards,
Graeme

LOL, I think it will be many a month away before I have anything that resembles working parts The problem I currently have is a cheap 10ba die, it hasn't really threaded it as opposed to stripped it and left more of an engraving mark. I think I might have to invest in a decent 10ba tap and die set, either that or convert it to 2mm threads where it uses 10ba but of course 2mm is close to 9ba, but I might be able to get away with it? A decent tap and die set for just 10ba size will set me back around £40 to £50, where as my entire ba 3 stage tap and die set from 2ba to 10ba was only around that, buy cheap, buy twice I guess

A slitting saw of 2mm sounds like a better option in the mill. Why would I need a mandrel, could you explain that one to me as I am not used to this kind of thing as you know? I was thinking of just popping the 4mm rod in the 3 jaw chuck on my tilting rotary table, of course keeping the length of the work to a minimum, though I may struggle getting the mill low enough without it hitting the chuck. I guess just popping it in the milling vice would be a bit cowboyish?

I confess, I do have a tilting vice and totally forgot about it as I have never used it, it was one of the tools that was already in the shed when we moved in so I kept it but have never used it as it's a bit of a beast for my small mill, but I am pretty sure that would have been the way to go on that occasion, I did try packing my small mill vice out at first but gave it up as a bad idea, lol.

We are still able to have a rummage in the off cut bins at the local metal merchants, but of course I am sure that will stop the day when some numpty cuts their wrist open on a sharp off cut I like going through their off cuts as most of them as more than big enough for my small requirements and more than enough choice of metals and sizes, others are just way too big.

[Busted Bricks]

A slitting saw is just a saw blade. You need a mandrel to mount it on so it can be chucked in the mill or lathe.

[GTB]

LOL, I think it will be many a month away before I have anything that resembles working parts The problem I currently have is a cheap 10ba die, it hasn't really threaded it as opposed to stripped it and left more of an engraving mark.

I'm planning on mine being completed in time for the GSSU here in Melbourne in early Nov., but I have to make a boiler as well. Anyway.....

I've had good quality brands of HSS die also pull that stunt on me. I mostly use a brand of taps and dies called Aprica, which is a house brand sold by a local supplier. They are carbon steel, so no good for threading stainless.

I have some taps and dies from T&D in the UK which are HQS steel and can handle stainless. They came from a local supplier, but unfortunately he no longer sells them, so I use them as little as possible and very carefully, as I can't easily replace them. The prices were reasonable by local standards.

https://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d169_FAQ.html

This page on Harold Hall's site might be useful to show how slitting saws are used in a vertical mill and a lathe. The saw blade is mounted on what Harold also calls a mandrel, although my usual machine tool supplier calls them a milling arbor. This site is a good reference for home machinists, as it includes a lot of photos. of various home workshop projects, processes and setups.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page564.html

My 50mm milling vices have a vertical and horizontal v-groove in the face of one jaw that can be used to securely hold round stock down to about 3mm dia. To use a slot drill to make the slot in the valve rod, I'd probably use that groove to hold the rod horizontally and then slowly mill the slot with a 2mm slot drill, using 0.25mm at a time for each cut. Like I said like watching paint dry.

I've got a few metric taps and dies for working on my Aster and Accucraft locos. Not easy (or cheap) to get metric ones locally for anything smaller than M3 and pretty much impossible to find hex head fasteners smaller than M3. Plus the hex on small ISO metric fasteners is a lot larger than the equivalent BA ones. I've had to make my own hex head screws to match the 'scale' Accucraft ones and finding small metric hex bar here isn't easy either.......

It is still relatively easier to find BA taps, dies and fasteners here in Oz, than the nearest metric sizes, so I've stayed with BA and ME threads on my models. How long that will last I don't know, as the boomer generation is the last one with enough interest in model engineering to support local suppliers.

Regards,
Graeme

[-steves-]

A slitting saw is just a saw blade. You need a mandrel to mount it on so it can be chucked in the mill or lathe.

Ah right I see. Well I do have a slitting saw in a mandrel, so it should just be a case of getting a 2mm saw blade that fits my mandrel.

[-steves-]

LOL, I think it will be many a month away before I have anything that resembles working parts The problem I currently have is a cheap 10ba die, it hasn't really threaded it as opposed to stripped it and left more of an engraving mark.

I'm planning on mine being completed in time for the GSSU here in Melbourne in early Nov., but I have to make a boiler as well. Anyway.....

I've had good quality brands of HSS die also pull that stunt on me. I mostly use a brand of taps and dies called Aprica, which is a house brand sold by a local supplier. They are carbon steel, so no good for threading stainless.

I have some taps and dies from T&D in the UK which are HQS steel and can handle stainless. They came from a local supplier, but unfortunately he no longer sells them, so I use them as little as possible and very carefully, as I can't easily replace them. The prices were reasonable by local standards.

https://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d169_FAQ.html

This page on Harold Hall's site might be useful to show how slitting saws are used in a vertical mill and a lathe. The saw blade is mounted on what Harold also calls a mandrel, although my usual machine tool supplier calls them a milling arbor. This site is a good reference for home machinists, as it includes a lot of photos. of various home workshop projects, processes and setups.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page564.html

My 50mm milling vices have a vertical and horizontal v-groove in the face of one jaw that can be used to securely hold round stock down to about 3mm dia. To use a slot drill to make the slot in the valve rod, I'd probably use that groove to hold the rod horizontally and then slowly mill the slot with a 2mm slot drill, using 0.25mm at a time for each cut. Like I said like watching paint dry.

I've got a few metric taps and dies for working on my Aster and Accucraft locos. Not easy (or cheap) to get metric ones locally for anything smaller than M3 and pretty much impossible to find hex head fasteners smaller than M3. Plus the hex on small ISO metric fasteners is a lot larger than the equivalent BA ones. I've had to make my own hex head screws to match the 'scale' Accucraft ones and finding small metric hex bar here isn't easy either.......

It is still relatively easier to find BA taps, dies and fasteners here in Oz, than the nearest metric sizes, so I've stayed with BA and ME threads on my models. How long that will last I don't know, as the boomer generation is the last one with enough interest in model engineering to support local suppliers.

Regards,
Graeme

I will reply to this when I get home as I am just at a wedding, lol.

[-steves-]

I'm planning on mine being completed in time for the GSSU here in Melbourne in early Nov., but I have to make a boiler as well. Anyway.....

I've had good quality brands of HSS die also pull that stunt on me. I mostly use a brand of taps and dies called Aprica, which is a house brand sold by a local supplier. They are carbon steel, so no good for threading stainless.

I have some taps and dies from T&D in the UK which are HQS steel and can handle stainless. They came from a local supplier, but unfortunately he no longer sells them, so I use them as little as possible and very carefully, as I can't easily replace them. The prices were reasonable by local standards.

https://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-uk/d169_FAQ.html

This page on Harold Hall's site might be useful to show how slitting saws are used in a vertical mill and a lathe. The saw blade is mounted on what Harold also calls a mandrel, although my usual machine tool supplier calls them a milling arbor. This site is a good reference for home machinists, as it includes a lot of photos. of various home workshop projects, processes and setups.

http://www.homews.co.uk/page564.html

My 50mm milling vices have a vertical and horizontal v-groove in the face of one jaw that can be used to securely hold round stock down to about 3mm dia. To use a slot drill to make the slot in the valve rod, I'd probably use that groove to hold the rod horizontally and then slowly mill the slot with a 2mm slot drill, using 0.25mm at a time for each cut. Like I said like watching paint dry.

I've got a few metric taps and dies for working on my Aster and Accucraft locos. Not easy (or cheap) to get metric ones locally for anything smaller than M3 and pretty much impossible to find hex head fasteners smaller than M3. Plus the hex on small ISO metric fasteners is a lot larger than the equivalent BA ones. I've had to make my own hex head screws to match the 'scale' Accucraft ones and finding small metric hex bar here isn't easy either.......

It is still relatively easier to find BA taps, dies and fasteners here in Oz, than the nearest metric sizes, so I've stayed with BA and ME threads on my models. How long that will last I don't know, as the boomer generation is the last one with enough interest in model engineering to support local suppliers.

Regards,
Graeme

I am sure you will get it done without any troubles, even with a boiler in that time.

Time for some investment in tools again it looks like as I can't be having that all the time with dies.

I do have a slitting saw on an arbour, but it's only 0.75mm so yet again, investment in tools again, lol.

I have a number of decent metric taps and dies which for the smaller sizes are decent quality and purchased locally.

I do have the advantage here of being able to get any size ba nuts and bots, right down to 14ba, which is super tiny. If you struggle to get things there, I am sure someone (or me) could but some and drop you a few of what you need in the post if you can't get them locally.

[-steves-]

Spent a little time on the cylinders today, not finished, but definitely started. Bit of a mishap today, I am intact but I did take the very tip of the skin of my finger off in the mill when I was being stupid and decided to brush the work down with my finger while the mill was still running. Just a bit of skin and flesh and I will be back to rights in no time, it could have been so much worse and I will take that as a warning

I used one of my 4mm steel rods as a test piece and ran my 0.75mm slitting saw across it, the results were good, I just need to get the 2mm thick one now and remake the rods as the die stripped them.



Below are the cylinders so far with the fronts made but not drilled or tapped yet and the backs part made. I am not 100% sure what the backs look like, but from what I can make of the plans, you turn it down to about 9mm round, the mill one flat down to 8mm and the other down to 7mm. I guess that's the next job when I am in the workshop.

[FWLR]

For someone who has very little experience with lathes Steve, I think you are doing a fantastic job. And the guys are giving you some very good advice and you will get even better with their help.

It won't be long before your Lathe will get to look like an apprenticed trained skilled Engineer.....