Northfield Tramway

A place for the discussion of garden railways and any garden style/scale portable and/or indoor layouts
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DafyddElvy
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:22 pm

philipy wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 2:12 pm
DafyddElvy wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:33 pm
I hadn't realised these connectors came in such a small size,
I had never come across this size before, either. I subsequently discovered that they do a 3-way version which have just been delivered, and other multiples seem to be available.
So my thanks to Rik as well.
When the 2 pin connectors came I decided to order some more 2 pins and the 3 and 4 pins types which I am sure will come in handy.

David

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Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 am

A quick sketch of the tramways test track, if trams can run on this they should have no problems in the garden.

A friend is knocking up a templot track plan for me so I can start progressing some track, albeit indoors on the test track.

David
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Jimmyb » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 am

DafyddElvy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 am A quick sketch of the tramways test track, if trams can run on this they should have no problems in the garden.

A friend is knocking up a templot track plan for me so I can start progressing some track, albeit indoors on the test track.

David
I would have thought the inner radius should be smaller than the outer radius, or at the very least the same radii, so I am surprised to see this the other way around :)

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:44 am

Jimmyb wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:27 am
DafyddElvy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 am A quick sketch of the tramways test track, if trams can run on this they should have no problems in the garden.

A friend is knocking up a templot track plan for me so I can start progressing some track, albeit indoors on the test track.

David
I would have thought the inner radius should be smaller than the outer radius, or at the very least the same radii, so I am surprised to see this the other way around :)
Jimmy,

Both radii are the same. Originally I thought about a conventional curved turnout but quickly realised that would be a bit of a pig to build and this arrangement is more in keeping with tramway practices and keeps the switches on the straight, the only fiddly bit is the obtuse crossing switches.

At least in 1:22.5 scale I'll be able to hold the turnout components with my fingers which should also make things simpler.

David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Melbournesparks » Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:48 am

DafyddElvy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 7:46 am A quick sketch of the tramways test track, if trams can run on this they should have no problems in the garden.

A friend is knocking up a templot track plan for me so I can start progressing some track, albeit indoors on the test track.

David
Is that for dual gauge track? Having the common rail swap sides in the set of points is an interesting feature! I guess this way you could use two independent point blades for each gauge?
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:10 pm

The turnout design came about because of the need for dual gauge track with the wider gauge rail on the outside of centre, I considered a number of different options, one not particularly sensible, and even one option with four rails in the single line section, the sketch was the best compromise I could think of.

At the moment I haven't even given operation of the turnout much thought, the outer curve is fairly simple, switches are either all set for the outer curve or they are not, the inner curve is going to need a wee bit of thought, if I was using DCC it would be simple but as I want to operate this in the same way I'll be operating things in the garden it needs some thought.
One idea I had for any points in the garden was to use pneumatics which could be adapted in this scenario quite easily with some springs and three air feeds to the point, I think about how the point is operated once I have a drawing that shows exactly where everything will fall and the space where the switch blades are.

David

edit
I should say that in the garden turnouts will be avoid where possible, one end of the line will have a balloon loop while the other end will have a turnout similar if not the same as this which will progressively move along as track work progresses along the back of the garden.

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Melbournesparks » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:34 pm

DafyddElvy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:10 pm The turnout design came about because of the need for dual gauge track with the wider gauge rail on the outside of centre, I considered a number of different options, one not particularly sensible, and even one option with four rails in the single line section, the sketch was the best compromise I could think of.

At the moment I haven't even given operation of the turnout much thought, the outer curve is fairly simple, switches are either all set for the outer curve or they are not, the inner curve is going to need a wee bit of thought, if I was using DCC it would be simple but as I want to operate this in the same way I'll be operating things in the garden it needs some thought.
One idea I had for any points in the garden was to use pneumatics which could be adapted in this scenario quite easily with some springs and three air feeds to the point, I think about how the point is operated once I have a drawing that shows exactly where everything will fall and the space where the switch blades are.

David

edit
I should say that in the garden turnouts will be avoid where possible, one end of the line will have a balloon loop while the other end will have a turnout similar if not the same as this which will progressively move along as track work progresses along the back of the garden.
One suggestion based on having built some points is moving the common rail side change to be outside the points, something like this:

Image

(excuse the MS paint)

Black is running rails, red is check rails. Then it is a bit easier to lay out the points themselves, and the common rail side change is a separate unit. Also allows you to use just a single point blade for both gauges. Single bladed points seem to do better outside, especially in dirty environments because you only have to clean out one blade to move them rather than two.
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm

I would worry if I was you, we are half thinking along the same idea (avoided the pun) and my wife says anyone who thinks like me should worry.

My Mk5 design was similar to yours but I changed the hand of the dual gauge on the single straight and and put the narrow gauge change over to the inner side on the outer curve, I am working in fine scale using code 200 rail and a 2mm flange way, using tramway practices I might try switching the outer curve narrow gauge to the inside using the check rail as a guard rail (slightly raised) to guide the tram rather than use switches, win win.

Now I also need to make some track gauges, but at least these will be universal.

David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Melbournesparks » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:01 pm

DafyddElvy wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:57 pm I would worry if I was you, we are half thinking along the same idea (avoided the pun) and my wife says anyone who thinks like me should worry.

My Mk5 design was similar to yours but I changed the hand of the dual gauge on the single straight and and put the narrow gauge change over to the inner side on the outer curve, I am working in fine scale using code 200 rail and a 2mm flange way, using tramway practices I might try switching the outer curve narrow gauge to the inside using the check rail as a guard rail (slightly raised) to guide the tram rather than use switches, win win.

Now I also need to make some track gauges, but at least these will be universal.

David
Haha, it's the inevitable result of thinking about track work too much. That sounds great, should really look the part with the fine wheel profile. I built all of mine to normal 45mm gauge wheel profile which has at least a 3mm flangeway, and a bit more on tight curves. It certainly doesn't have the same look, but I wasn't brave enough for a custom wheel profile. Or gauge for that matter. It's a pity there isn't any proper girder rail. I even looked into how feasible it would be to get a custom aluminium extrusion made once. It wasn't so expensive that you wouldn't consider it at all from memory, but it would have needed to be in a volume far higher than what I was going to use at the time.

Coming from a part of the world where dual gauge is widespread common rail changes are usually static, I've only ever seen an active one that uses point blades in some specific situations that require a high speed.

Making some track gauges is a good idea. You can live without them, but proper tools make life a lot easier!
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:20 pm

I decided from the outset that I want to adopt fine scale track and wheels standards, I know its bucking the trend a bit but as I have also opted for battery power their aren't many folk likely to bring their stock along unless I do put power in the track.

I am using standard Gauge 1 wheels which have a 1.3mm wide flange, a 2mm flangeway for straight and radii over (and I'm guessing) 3m should be fine, below about 3m radius I suspect I'll need to experiment a bit.

Hey I'm new to the garden tramway scene I'm expected to build things that need a wee bit of tweaking to get it right, its all part of the fun, I think.

David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Tue Jun 22, 2021 6:36 pm

After some to and fro'ing I have a design which works, all I need to do now is build the baseboard to build it on.

It was the cleanest design I could come up with with the minimum complications such as switches doubling as check rails.

David
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Jimmyb » Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:24 pm

It will be interesting to see the finished article, looking forward to it.

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Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Fri Jun 25, 2021 2:37 pm

Jimmyb wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:24 pm It will be interesting to see the finished article, looking forward to it.
Jimmy,

I built something similar for my 7mm scale tram storage/fiddle yard, the only difference being the inner loop is narrow gauge and only the outer loop is dual gauge.

I am looking forward to building this in the larger scale and being able to hold the parts properly during construction, their is quite a bit of difference between working with code 75 rail and code 200 rail, also the 7mm scale dual gauge turnout is about 200mm long, this one is a wee bit bigger.

Just waiting on some parts to arrive before I start building things.


David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:47 pm

A wee bit a testing for the tram and trailer on a roughly 3% gradient which it will shouldn't ever need to tackle on the garden tramway.

Batteries at approx 90% charge
Tram + trailer required 20% power
Tram on it's own struggled on 5%, nae bother on 10%

https://youtu.be/B2gFLI3nF48

David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:54 pm

A wee bit a testing for the tram and trailer on a roughly 3% gradient which it shouldn't ever need to tackle on the garden tramway.

Batteries at approx 90% charge
Tram + trailer required 20% power
Tram on it's own struggled on 5%, nae bother on 10%

https://youtu.be/B2gFLI3nF48

David

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Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Fri Jul 02, 2021 7:38 pm

Temptation was too much and I needed to set the safety valve for tomorrows run anyhow ;-) https://youtu.be/2Fob2PA9hJs

David

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by Melbournesparks » Sat Jul 03, 2021 11:51 am

DafyddElvy wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 6:54 pm A wee bit a testing for the tram and trailer on a roughly 3% gradient which it shouldn't ever need to tackle on the garden tramway.

Batteries at approx 90% charge
Tram + trailer required 20% power
Tram on it's own struggled on 5%, nae bother on 10%

https://youtu.be/B2gFLI3nF48

David
That looks great! The proper 21E truck really makes a difference.

I have a similar unit with a 21E and two axle hung traction motors that can haul a bogie trailer on my 1:20 grades, so it should be no problem. I've seen some people only fit a single traction motor to a four wheel tram.
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by ge_rik » Fri Jul 16, 2021 8:01 am

I bet it's satisfying to see everything runs smoothly. Another step on the way ......

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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by DafyddElvy » Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:42 am

It's been a while since their was any great progress toward actual having a garden tramway.
Just now my body feels like I tried to destroy it, buy I now have the first 4 coarses of bricks and internal blocks laid for the flower bed cum return loop. All bricks and blocks have been recovered from old raised flower beds that I de- constructed, and cement/concrete all mixed by hand in a barrow, hence I'm aching like I've never ached.

Anyhow, all bricks and blocks for the final 3 coarses now cleaned and ready for laying and the whole thing has to be filled with dirt I kept when excavating for the new lower level slabs seating area, yep I've been doing other work to keep domestic harmony, well almost domestic harmony most of the time.

Picture was taken Saturday evening when I stopped as I was reminded to feed my wee pal, and myself.

From the end of the raised bed will be a 4m long viaduct, of a varying height as the ground falls away, down to an acute angle in the fence where there will be some form of rocky feature about 2m high. As I want two datums for the viaduct, the rocky feature will be the next challenge after the raised bed.
What happens after the rocky feature has yet to be decided, as I look for inspirational ideas.
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Re: Northfield Tramway

Post by 3 minutes of fame » Mon Jun 19, 2023 8:13 am

It looks like your plans are quite similar to what I've built. I also have some Occre trams, all fitted with a single Appletree motor gearbox apiece, as I don't tow trailers, and grades are reasonably flat. My other interest is narrow gauge, hence the Ffestiniog stock and Welsh station building.

I used Cliff Barker gauge 1 stainless track, which is gauge widened, and makes sharper curves more easily negotiated by the trams. He also sells individual components including rail chairs and check rail fittings, all in ABS, so making up points and crossovers is reasonably simple. I made all my points up using some old 32mm coarse scale points I was given, rebuilding them to 45mm using Cliff Barker parts. They are driven by servos in 3d printed enclosures, and seem to work very well. A couple of pictures below.
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